Nautilus file browser toolbar is complicated, needs a face-lift

Bug #386150 reported by David Siegel on 2009-06-11
166
This bug affects 18 people
Affects Status Importance Assigned to Milestone
Nautilus
Expired
Medium
One Hundred Papercuts
High
Unassigned
nautilus (Ubuntu)
Wishlist
Unassigned

Bug Description

*****************
This proposal is post-poned for now , Upstream Nautilus devs want to work on toolbar editor > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42834

The right place for any Comments/thoughts/suggestions regarding the design can be posted on the Ubuntu wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Design/Nautilus

A Launchpad bug report is not the place for a debate about the design.
Kindly post your suggestions on the wiki page. Your feedback is valuable.
*****************

By default, Nautilus's file browser displays a side pane, a status bar, and two toolbars (a "Main Toolbar" and a "Location Bar"), not to mention a menu bar and the content area itself. This presents the user with a huge amount of complexity. I asked myself a few questions while looking at the default file browser:

    1. Back, forward, up, stop, reload, home, zoom, a location bar -- these are the same controls available in my web browser that I know and love. Why do they look so different here? They take up so much more space, and they occupy two toolbars where my web browser needs only one.

    2. What does the Stop button do?

    3. Why do back, forward, up, stop, etc. have text labels? They don't have text labels in Firefox. The icons are good -- I recognize the symbols and understand what the buttons do.

    4. Why do I have "Home" and "Computer" buttons when the same functionality is available and made much more useful in the side pane? That seems redundant.

These questions prompted a very simple rearrangement of the default controls (see attachment simpler_nautilus.png).

    1. It should be at least as simple to browse your local documents as it is to browse the Internet. I've combined the Navigation and Location toolbars into one.

    2. I removed Stop.

    3. I removed labels. The icons are salient and tooltips are available.

    4. I left the home and computer buttons untouched, but removed them in another mockup (simpler_nautilus.png).

What do you think? Can we simplify Nautilus, even if not this drastically?

Mockup of a simplified Nautilus file browser.

Mockup of an even simpler Nautilus file browser.

summary: - Nautilus file browser is complicated, redundant, and ugly
+ Nautilus file browser toolbar is complicated, redundant, and ugly
description: updated

This removes the view changer and zoom icons (they are available in the View menu) to give more room for the location breadcrumb.

Personally, I don't agree with the "lets bypass the gnome default for a
toolbar" idea. I don't find it very comfortable, and leave the icons +
labels in for a reason.

New users have trouble navigating a browser too - it shouldn't be held as
the perfection of usability in navigation. Adjustments are still being done
to it in the current day even (ie, the bigger 'back' button in firefox 3.0)

Vadim, I'm not sure who you're quoting, but it mischaracterizes the spirit of my
suggestion.

It's a fallacy of tradition to assume that Nautilus was carefully designed, and
is good just the way it is, simply because that's how it's configured in GNOME.
If you look in Nautilus's view menu, you'll see that you can optionally hide
most of its graphical elements. The default configuration simply turns all of
these optional elements on. This seems less like a well-chosen default
configuration, and more like the inclusion of everything and the kitchen sink.

We have an opportunity to improve the usability of Nautilus, and we will work
together with upstreams to make these improvements in concert. I am not
suggesting that Firefox is perfect and we should copy it exactly. I am
suggesting Nautilus may be easily improved, and if that's the case, we should
improve it.

>
> Personally, I don't agree with the "lets bypass the gnome default for a
> toolbar" idea. I don't find it very comfortable, and leave the icons +
> labels in for a reason.
>

I was referring to the fact that the mockup bypasses the gnome default of
big icons + text and instead uses small icon, no text.

New users have trouble navigating a browser too - it shouldn't be held as
> the perfection of usability in navigation. Adjustments are still being done
> to it in the current day even (ie, the bigger 'back' button in firefox 3.0)
>

Was referring to, as it's implied here, the web browser standard:

+ 1. Back, forward, up, stop, reload, home, zoom, a location bar --
+ these are the same controls available in my web browser that I know and
+ love. Why do they look so different here? They take up so much more
+ space, and they occupy two toolbars where my web browser needs only one.

Nothing personal, just my comments on the proposed design.

Personally I feel that the issues identifies might not be applicable to all
users and a proper usability study should be conducted beforehand. Remember
that even the best interface designer is biased ;)

Actually, the icons are the same size! I only turned off the labels,
removed some elements, and moved others around.

On Jun 11, 2009, at 20:12, Vadim Peretokin <email address hidden> wrote:

>>
>> Personally, I don't agree with the "lets bypass the gnome default
>> for a
>> toolbar" idea. I don't find it very comfortable, and leave the
>> icons +
>> labels in for a reason.
>>
>
> I was referring to the fact that the mockup bypasses the gnome
> default of
> big icons + text and instead uses small icon, no text.
>
> New users have trouble navigating a browser too - it shouldn't be
> held as
>> the perfection of usability in navigation. Adjustments are still
>> being done
>> to it in the current day even (ie, the bigger 'back' button in
>> firefox 3.0)
>>
>
> Was referring to, as it's implied here, the web browser standard:
>
> + 1. Back, forward, up, stop, reload, home, zoom, a location bar
> --
> + these are the same controls available in my web browser that I
> know and
> + love. Why do they look so different here? They take up so much more
> + space, and they occupy two toolbars where my web browser needs
> only one.
>
> Nothing personal, just my comments on the proposed design.
>
> Personally I feel that the issues identifies might not be applicable
> to all
> users and a proper usability study should be conducted beforehand.
> Remember
> that even the best interface designer is biased ;)
>
> --
> Nautilus file browser toolbar is complicated, redundant, and ugly
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/386150
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.

Indeed, my oversight. Most of the point still stands though.

Mat Tomaszewski (mat.t.) wrote :

David, I like your suggestion of simplifying the default configuration. I think we have to be extremely careful of what we actually change, as it can have a tremendous impact on file browser's usability (and, as a result, on how Ubuntu is perceived).

My call would be to run a series of user tests with various configurations and see which areas could be problematic.

I strongly agree though that nautilus needs to be simpler and deal with screen space better.

Mat Tomaszewski (mat.t.) wrote :

This is a high priority papercut, as it affects major area of the UI and impacts most user groups.

Changed in hundredpapercuts:
importance: Undecided → High
status: New → Confirmed

In my opinion ignoring the gnome setting whether or not to show text labels in toolbars should not be ignored in nautilus. if users don't want text labels, they can set it accordingly system wide.

Personally, I use all of the UI elements in Nautilus regularly. Including the side pane, including the zooming icons. And I value the location bar very much, that's one of the best features of nautilus.

Please don't start overactively simplifying stuff without consensus and it being well thought through. Thanks!

Alexander Hunziker wrote:
> In my opinion ignoring the gnome setting whether or not to show text
> labels in toolbars should not be ignored in nautilus. if users don't
> want text labels, they can set it accordingly system wide.
>

True, but we want a good, simple, intuitive default first, then the
option to change it by adding or modifying features.

> Personally, I use all of the UI elements in Nautilus regularly.
> Including the side pane, including the zooming icons. And I value the
> location bar very much, that's one of the best features of nautilus.
>

So, if they were switched off by default (I'm not necessarily suggesting
they should), you could, according to your suggestion above, switch them
on system-wide.

> Please don't start overactively simplifying stuff without consensus and
> it being well thought through. Thanks!
>

We won't. This is something that needs testing and discussing. Any
opinions and suggestions are most welcome.

Some comments there:

- GNOME has a preference to display labels on toolbar or not, see the interface tab in the appareance capplet
- changing all the button to don't display text doesn't seem the best move, you might want to change the default desktop option if you think that's really a good idea though
- the buttonbar can quickly have several items by putting there on an already loaded toolbar you will impact on the usability

Changed in nautilus (Ubuntu):
assignee: nobody → Ubuntu Desktop Bugs (desktop-bugs)
importance: Undecided → Wishlist
status: New → Confirmed

> Why do back, forward, up, stop, etc. have text labels? They don't have text labels in Firefox.

Firefox doesn't respect GNOME's toolbar settings. It's a great achievement that is uses GTK style and icons...

I like the mockups. To simplify things further, why not leave out the back and forward button as well? The up button, the directories shown in the browser and the bread-crumb location bar make these a bit superfluous.

Daniele Napolitano (dnax88) wrote :

The right way (IMHO) is reduce from 2 toolbars to 1.

About removing strings, just change the priority for Previus and Next items.

> 2. What does the Stop button do?

The stop button makes it possible to stop loading network/remote folders and folders with a lot of items: quite handy when you have to browse a lot on the local network.

> I like the mockups. To simplify things further, why not leave out the back and forward button as well?

The back button is pretty handy if you go from a random folder to one in your bookmarks and then want to move back again to that last folder.

Zoom and Change View
I don't use the zoom icons actually, so I can't say anything about that, but the change view option right next to it is a really nice thing (a lot of people nót used to ubuntu liked it when they had to work on our kitchen pc).

Breadcrumb
What can be improved though is the breadcrumb itself: when directory names are long every breadcrumb disappears but the current directory and the arrows. If there could be a cutoff / max lenght of the shown name, that would prevent 'loosing' all the breadcrumbs.

Toolbar Button Labels
About the text underneath the icons: I always disable it, but at my parents pc I did not disable it because they need some more feedback. I can understand that in a (file) browser you don't want it, as well as in a music player (Rhythmbox). In Rhythmbox is an option (Toolbar Button Labels) to follow the Gnome style, or to manually set it. This would be nice to have in Nautilus.
Default can than be off, while preserving the overall style of showing text below icons.

beefcurry (jonzwong) wrote :

I like and use everything in the current nautilus tool bar, zoom, location bar, and like the large icons. The options are there if anyone wants to disable items, rather then change it (which I don't think is necessary) we should just make it so it can be edited with ease (like in epiphany).

Having large buttons are surprisingly good if you use them alot, especially on small screens, you would expect smaller buttons to be better since they give more screen space for the icons, but it makes navigating and clicking on them harder. On an netbook the larger buttons work like a charm.

Sancho Panza (prashanthr) wrote :

The tabbing functionality in Nautilus is something that I often use. But I always have to use Ctrl-T
to open a new tab or click thru the menus to open a new tab. How about adding a new "new tab" button
to the Nautilus toolbar which would open a new tabbed Nautilus window?

I remember seeing a mockup of Nautilus once (on planet.gnome.org) where the zoom and view controls where moved to the status bar. In place of these controls was a search field.
It's a pretty good idea because it makes use of a mostly unused space to keep functionalities.

(Maybe this was this mock up, although the list/icon control is missing: http://img15.imageshack.us/i/nautilus1.png/)

Nicolò Chieffo (yelo3) wrote :

I would also like to discuss the possibility to add other buttons (cut copy past trash): in a filemanager they are useful, and it's really easy to add them (just edit nautilus-navigation-window-ui.xml)

Adrien Siebert (asiebert) wrote :

David's second mockup (http://launchpadlibrarian.net/27798051/simple_nautilus_2.png) looks very similar to Thunar interface to me (the file manager of Xfce).
Everyone liking the mockup may want to take a look at the cap attached.

Alan (alanloughlin) wrote :

i agress that something needs to be done with the default view of nautilus.
on a 1280x800 laptop screen, the toolbars are taking up a lot of screen real estate.

one other thing that i've noticed thunar has that nautilus doesn't is the "used space" of the viewed folder in the status bar.
I was going to log this as a seperate request, but think it will be worth bundling this with the overall look of nautilus.

bruno.braga (bruno-braga) wrote :

That might sound stupid, but I kind of miss the tree view style to navigate into sub-folders, etc, without actually opening the folder itself. This is specially annoying if you have too many files in one single folder (such as logs, etc), which consumes machine resources even though you are willing to go to another place... If you use the address bar, then it is just the same of using the terminal (that's what I'm doing, besides when I want to open images and movies).

Does this sound too much of windows poisoning?

Bratwurstler (j-sage) wrote :

@bruno.braga: it does not ;)

I would like to see tree view, too. It's faster and would, in a way, replace the location-bar-thingy, which imo is a bad compromise.

Michael Budde (mbudde) wrote :

@bruno.barga and Jänz: To me it sounds like the feature you are asking for is already implemented in Nautilus (see screenshot).

Bratwurstler (j-sage) wrote :

ou, weird! thanks michael. O.o never used, but ever wanted :D

however :D

ShawnJGoff (shawn-goff) wrote :

Buttons are too bulky for the breadcrumb. I'd prefer a different widget; something that made them all look like part something, but independent within. If anyone else shares the sentiment, I can make a mockup.

The zoom buttons in the statusbar is a good choice, as is the right-aligned search textarea.

Laco Gubík (laco) wrote :

Hi guys,

I think that there should be option to create your own toolbar in Nautilus. Whatever we will put together will never 100% satisfy all users (especially power users) and at the end linux is also about choice.
Evince and Eye of Gnome have this option (if you go to Edit -> Toolbar) and I love it, you can add and remove icons as you prefer.

1. In my mockup, I have removed dropdown menu arrow from Back icon and left only one next to Forward (there is no need to have two).

2. I have removed Up, Stop and Reload buttons, which are not so much used. You can substitute Up with Back and Forward and also you have bellow it breadcrumbs which allow you using one click to get up.

3. I have also removed Home icon which user has in sidebar (together with other places) and I have moved Computer icon into sidebar. In my mockup I have replaced File system entry with Computer, because I do not believe that it makes sense to have both of them next to each other. Plus File system is available from within Computer.

4. I have removed search icon but added search box which will make search more usable and it is well known from web and browsers. Nautilus search is very good so I think we should make it easier to use (especially for search-dominant users).

5. I think that by default nautilus should always show at least one tab. Right now lot of users might not realise that tabs in nautilus exist and that they can use them. I have also added little button next to last tab which will allow user to add new tab.

6. I'm not so sure where to put zoom icons, but I think this is good feature and it adds to usability and accessibility, so it should be visible. In mockup 1 I have added them into tab toolbar and in mockup 2 I have moved them down to status bar.
Alternative would be to have one more thiner toolbar under main toolbar with zoom icons and I would also add there three icons to change view mode (icons, list, compact) because there is no point in having toolbar with two icons.

Please feel free to comment on mockups.

Laco Gubík (laco) wrote :

Here is second mockup with zoom icons moved into statusbar.

seanh (seanh) wrote :

I believe that Gnome's default for nautilus is spatial mode ;)

Basically i agree with you, but IMO is much easier simply to hide main toolbar. http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5613/obrazovka.png

bruno.braga (bruno-braga) wrote :

Hi Michael, thanks for the info. Surprises me the fact I never noticed the option to change to tree view. I think this thread still goes other ways anyway, but for me, my problem is solved! :-)

fhein (johan-oljud) wrote :

I wish I could right-click the toolbar and select "customize" as you can in Firefox. I hate having to use the menus, or learn keyboard shortcuts, for functions I use frequently (show hidden files and show/hide side pane for example). I also like to switch between icon and list view (and preview, when the file manager has that option) so for me it would much more convenient to have clickable icons instead being forced to use the combobox.

kikl (kilian-klaiber) wrote :

I think it's a great idea to have the file browser look like and work just like the standard internet browser. Simplifying and cleaning up the interface is a great idea. But, I do think you can make exceptions. The wording below the icons doesn't distract much and helps the absolute novice. You could include the option to make the words disappear for more experienced users.

But, there is one aspect of the file-browser that differs from the internet-browser, which I find quite disturbing. The search field is not positioned next to the location field and it doesn't have it's own dedicated search-area. Instead, the search field replaces the location area or uses the location area as it's search area, when you press it. I find that quite confusing.

I would suggest implementing the search field just like in the firefox browser and deleting the "icon view" tab from the ui, since this is something you don't really change that often, at least I don't. The icon view could simply be another point in the folder "view".

Thanks for your great work and I hope you achieve your goal in beating OS-X in terms of usability;-) You can make it!

antistress (antistress) wrote :

Wow i couldn't say better that kiki (comment 37) : it's a very well-balanced opinion
It would also fix Bug #57210
having the search filed replacing the location bar doesn't look optimum to me

Nicolò Chieffo (yelo3) wrote :

Here's my proposal (mixing some of yours):
1. merge main and location toolbar
2. always show the directory toolbar (the one you have when you go to trash) and put some common tasks (new, copy, cut, paste, trash, change view)
3. optionally change the search button with a GtkEntry (you can also put a "filter icon" at left and a "clear icon" at right if you like), and change the name to "Filter" (actually it's a filter and not a search)
4. move the zoom to the status bar, and eventually change its shape to a GtkScale

I would like to have your comments

antistress (antistress) wrote :

Here are mines :
1. Place all shorcuts in sidebar (i.e. Computer) - no shorcuts in toolbar.
2. Don't replace the Location Bar with Search field it seems confusing to me (note that GTKFileChooser acts in a similar way but not exactly and i find GTKFileChooser to be less confusing than Nautilus i don't know why)
Maybe a permanent Search Field could replace Home, Computer and Search buttons ?
3. Let the Location bar distinct : it allows to display large paths
4. Organisze the side bar : see http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=508404 & http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=576587#c20

Maybe it's more than a papercut ?

kikl (kilian-klaiber) wrote :

Well, if you ask me, this proposal is actually my preferred design:

http://launchpadlibrarian.net/28077867/Nautilus_mockup_2-zoom_down.png

File transfer on a desktop is a lot faster than over the internet. Most of the time, the stop and refresh buttons are not used, so I think they can be hidden in the menus. The up button isn't necessary, because the location bar gives you even more options instantly and it's always there. Icon view is something you usually only choose once and then stick with your choice. Therefore, it is right to remove it from the GUI. The interface takes up less space and is less complex, that's great!

I thought about the text below the icons. You could let short descriptions automatically appear, when the mouse is moved and held above the icon. Saves space and has no apparent disadvantages.

Tabbed-browsing is implemented the chrome way? It looks really nice. Lat but not least, there is a dedicated search field just like in firefox. I like it!

Some criticism:

The idea of showing buttons for copy/cut and paste is brilliant - credits to Chieffo! - because that's what you mainly do in the file browser. I think these three commands could be squeezed between the navigation buttons and the location bar. That way, they would be easily accessible.

A little off topic:

If you want to drag and drop, you need to show the tabs side by side and not on top of each other. O.K. now you can drag a file to another tab by dragging it to the part of the tab (the top of the tab) that is actually being displayed. But that doesn't appear intuitive to me. I think there should be an option for automatically arranging the tabs next to each other rather than on top of each other. Or shouldn't that be the default behavior of tabs in a file browser? Well, I usually use the context menu, but mum would never find out...

O.K that's more than enough! Cheers and good luck!

Brian (btthalion+launchpad) wrote :

I definitely agree the current Nautilus view is far too complicated. It should be pared down, and should take up less screen real estate. There should be one menu bar and one tool bar, that is it. Another row of chrome is acceptable to show tabs. Anything above this is guaranteed to be too much.

I believe firmly that the nautilus file browser should appear quite similar to a web browser. I agree with Vadim above when he says that users have problems with Web Browsers too, but the reason for the similarity is not ease of use per se, it's consistency. Users who are somewhat familiar using a web browser should be able to operate the file browser in a similar fashion. To that end, I like the proposed mockups, they are a definite improvement.

The UP button should go, there is no reason for it to exist with the breadcrumbs there.

The zoom buttons should definitely move to the status bar if they are going to be present at all (I think this point is debatable).

One thing that has always bothered me about the Nautilus UI is that the breadcrumbs don't have enough visual cohesion. They feel like regular buttons strewn about; there's not much to convey that it's the folder hierarchy in breadcrumbs form. In my opinion, if the buttons were smaller and grouped inside something that looks like a browser location bar, usability would improve drastically as it'd be far more obvious what their use is.

antistress (antistress) wrote :

considering my comment 40 i changed my mind
finally it's logical to have the search field replacing the location bar since there is no location to display when doing a search (by definition)

Therefore here are my suggestions :
1. fix Bug #57210 (already done!)
2. Let the Location bar distinct : it allows to display large paths
3. Organize the side bar : see http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=508404 & http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=576587#c20

kikl (kilian-klaiber) wrote :

There is no location to display when you are doing a search? How about displaying the location/folder, in which you are searching? If you use the search field, the search should be conducted by default in the folder, which is open. In the current implementation, the search bar replaces the location bar and a new location bar is displayed below search results indicating the location of search. That's just too complicated.

Lorenzo (lorenzo-delledonne) wrote :

I definitely support Brian's idea to _group_ in a "location bar" all those buttons showing the current fs path. And, if possible, we should reduce their height sizing!

Well, we have lots of ideas, but currently it's missing a developer's
clear opinion...
Dear Mat Tomaszewski what's your opinion? Have you got another
proposal or do you agree with one of the current ones?
When will you start to show us how are you going to change the toolbars?
Thanks

Btw I want to propose the idea of removing the navigation toolbar (with arrows) and leave only the one with radio buttons. I have seen it here but with my theme I tried to make the look of nautilus even simpler.

shafin (mahdee-jameel) wrote :

I use nautilus exactly the way dilomo has posted it.

1. Navigation toolbar is removed, but I dont think this wil be a sane default. I sometimes need to alt-back or alt-forward, which would not be an intuitive thing for a new user

2.Laco's first mockup looks good, but I need the icon-tree-compact view button on it.

3. It'd be great if nautilus could open all new folders in tabs like firefox, or at least had an option to do it..

none (none12) wrote :

The stop button should not be removed without replacement.

I like the way evolution displays its current actions and provides a button to abort each of them - in the status bar. That way, no (mostly greyed out) stop button is required in the toolbar, and current actions can be aborted right where they are being displayed.

How difficult would it be to implement this in nautilus?

NaSH (lenashou) wrote :

well... i think it's a very bad idea.
most user, on other os, use the navigation arrow.. remove them, mean annoying lots of new user on linux.
i even use them very often, without thinking about it. And if you look how people use win95->vista, you'll see they use it everyday.

So removing it is a bad idea if you want to spread the use of a file manager on linux.

reducing the size of nautilus on the screen is for me, one of the main thing that has to be done.
the toolbar is too big, it's true. i don't know about the icons inside, but don't remove the arrow, witch are usefull for many newbie.

another important point for me, is the size of the folders, i already talked about it on the bug that have been merged with this one : https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/388089
(do i need to repeat ? or just a link is engouh? i'm not used with the way talking on a buglist)

antistress (antistress) wrote :

Please consider not trading usability for a bit of space

Pieter v (pvdvegte) wrote :

I agree that cut, copy, paste & delete is what you do in a file browser a lot of the time, and so is very useful.

I know a lot of you use the keyboard shortcuts, but usually when I am browsing I use the mouse and find that clicking on an option such as copy or paste is a much more efficient way of doing things.

I also like the idea of trialling a couple of different versions.

Ultimately I think adding more options through the preferences menu will cater to different users.

antistress (antistress) wrote :

For the record, here is a Dolphin (KDE's file browser) screenshot ;
Dolphin with Ubuntu theme (to focus on GUI's elements et not on theme) http://blog.rom1v.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/dolphin-gnome.png
(default nautilus : http://launchpadlibrarian.net/27797607/default_nautilus.png )

You may want to align the location bar with "Places" to gain some space without messing up the whole GUI.

Small/Big icons can be set in GNOME preferences so that's not a problem. Let big icons by default for the average user. Advanced users can reduce theme.

Changed in hundredpapercuts:
milestone: none → round-4

#2: I agree with what "none" said. The stop button may be useful when you need to stop a nautilus action, but not when you're just sitting there browsing a folder. Ideally the button would be removed and a "stop" button could appear somewhere whenever Nautilus is "working".
#3: Despite criticism from others, I agree with David. I think proper icons and tooltips negate the need for space-consuming labels.
#4: Definitely agree. I'm looking at David's mockups and I still see icons for "Computer" and "Home". Shouldn't these be removed and both of them placed in the "Places" sidebar on the left? That seems to make the most sense. Or maybe leave the "Home".

I also agree with the later assessment? Do many people use the Zoom icons? Couldn't the icons be removed and the actions placed in the View menu?

I have a question too. Is there a need for Reload? I feel like everything appears instantaneously in Nautilus. Or is this just for using shares and folders on other computers?

Lorenzo (lorenzo-delledonne) wrote :

In some web browsers, "Reload" and "Stop" actions shares the same button (set to "reload" when rendering is done, set to "stop" when the browser is still processing his task)

Serious (cs071007) wrote :

imo too much "streamlining" (moving the stuff to one toolbar) could get bad for usability.
1) esp with the current implementation of the breadcrumb-toolbar it just looks like another bunch of buttuns (a bunch of buttons should first be eliminated)
2) Merging the stop/reload button is a good proposal
3) "Computer" should show up in side bar
4) imo we should get some layout like this
[back] [forward] [up] [reload/stop] [ url-bar in normal text-form ][ search-field ]
and zoom and view could be pushed to the right side of the status bar (like in opera)

Psy[H[] (vovik-wfa) wrote :

I think that Stop button should be used to stop loading thumbnails. I saw a bug or a brainstorm idea about this, I do not remember... but it would be better to give this button a needed function instead of just removing it.

kikl (kilian-klaiber) wrote :

Well, I want to disagree. The bread crumbs are really great! A "coherent look" would be better. Give the bread crumbs a frame and the same color as the folder they represent. If you display the "url-bar" in text form, then why not display the "url-bar" as coherent bread crumbs? You display the same information without using more space and additionally you have the option to navigate using the bread crumbs without cluttering the GUI with additional stuff. The bread crumbs provide the same functionally as the up button and even more. Therefore, the up button can go. So the bread crumbs actually save space on the interface and provide additional navigating options.

In my opinion, the GUI should only display those commands most commonly used. The cut/copy/paste/delete commands are more important than "back, forward, up". You can easily navigate through the folders without any of these commands. The file manager should automatically display the present content of the folder, which renders the refresh button useless. If a file transfer takes a bit longer, a pop up window should appear with the option of stopping the file transfer.

I do agree that "computer" should be removed from the main tool bar and displayed in the side bar. "Home" should be removed altogether, because it's already contained in the side-bar, but not called "home", instead it carries your user name. That's a bug too.

The list view is useful, if you need additional information about your files. This information could be displayed in the bottom of the GUI, which merely displays the name and size of the selected file. You could also display the type and date modified of the selected file

I think usability and simplicity go hand in hand. Therefore, the interface should be as simple as possible. It should only contain the commands you really need 99% of the time. Additional options should be accessible form the menus. Customizing the interface is good, in particular for power users with specific needs. But don't clutter the interface with commands, which would help the power user, but would make the novice turn his back on Ubuntu.

The gnome desktop is, a no-nonsense straight forward interface. Nautilus should be just like that.

Good Luck and keep up the great work!

SY (optical267) wrote :

ShawnJGoff makes a good point that standard buttons are really not the appropriate widget for the breadcrumbs. Not only are they an illogical choice, they also look very unattractive. Instead, it would be preferable if the breadcrumbs were made up of clickable text elements in the following format: element > element > element. KDE's Dolphin implements breadcrumbs in exactly this way, as you can see in this screenshot of Dolphin with Ubuntu's GTK style: http://blog.rom1v.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/dolphin-gnome.png

Using this style of breadcrumbs would allow the vertical space required for the breadcrumbs to be reduced, and probably the horizontal space as well. The breadcrumbs could even be moved out of the toolbar and into a thin strip at the top of the content area, as in the dolphin screenshot, freeing up space in the toolbar, and allowing it to be reduced to one row. This would allow the places sidebar to extend further vertically upward.

Additionally, I agree the combining the stop and reload buttons into one would be a step in the right direction. This way, the stop button would only appear when it has a purpose (during long loads of network resources), and it would be substantially less confusing to users.

Customizable toolbars of the sort that Firefox and Safari have (drag and drop) would also be a nice feature.

The main characteristic that has traditionally distinguished Gnome is a commitment to usability. This commitment has served Gnome well over the years, contributing to its current popularity among Linux/Unix environments. It is important that we not stop innovating for the sake of usability, and that we not become bound by tradition, and simply allow Gnome to stagnate. There are certainly many things that can be improved about the current Nautilus, and indeed the rest of Gnome, and these changes should not be dismissed out of hand just because they involve breaking with convention.

That style of breadcrumbs looks very nice and much better than it is now.

DM74S (danielsan474) wrote :

a Mockup...
- with the launchpad style bar
- left panel items cutted or replaced
- everything else could be placed inside options menu

SY (optical267) wrote :

The launchpad-style breadcrumbs are certainly an improvement, but I personally feel that the more textual style for breadcrumbs (element > element > element) would be better. Not only does KDE use this style, but so does Windows Vista, and the majority of web sites that include breadcrumb navigation. This style would be more familiar to users. In any case, the current breadcrumb style is very undesirable, and should be fixed as some point in the future.

The home button is also redundant, and arguably a waste of space, as there is a link to Home both in the Places left sidebar and in the Go menu. Also, a reload/stop button is pretty much a necessity to work with storage with slow data rates and high latencies (network disks, etc.).

Although I do not necessarily agree with the existence of a global setting for showing text with toolbar items, ignoring this global setting in a program that forms such a central and high-profile part of Gnome, such as Nautilus, would be dangerous and confusing to users.

Phantom (lord-phantom) wrote :

I'm against decreasing the size of buttons!

If you're using mouse - it's fine. But not, when you're using a touchscreen! I'm currently on a 12,1" tablet (HP tx2500) and these buttons are usable, because my fingers easily fit on them. MS Windows are unusable because of the small elements.

Same on big resolution screens. On 37" LCD with a 1920x1080 resolution small buttons just don't work well. Especially when using non-precise device like Wiimote.

Sorry for my english, but i don't want to see a disaster. This case needs a lot of thought. We need a compromise what's the best when choosing between size, resolution and used input device.

kikl (kilian-klaiber) wrote :

"clickable text elements" for bread crumbs is a good idea. To me, it is not visually apparent that these text elements are actually clickable. Maybe just a minor problem...

SY (optical267) wrote :

This is the only downside I can think of to this style of breadcrumbs versus the current style. That being said, as long as a hover state is provided for the breadcrumb elements, I think it would be fairly apparent that the elements are clickable. Overall, I think it would be a win for usability to use a more common and logical style.

Psy[H[] (vovik-wfa) wrote :

A mockup by Daniele Medri is nice. My variant would be with path layed over "launchpad" buttons (with slashes and less spaces between). Also with home in the side panel, and with functional stop button. If it is to be used to stop loading thumbnails (in folders with a lot of pictures it is a pain) then a refresh button is also would be needed. These are essentials. Four buttons and breadcrumbs.

Psy[H[] (vovik-wfa) wrote :

Oh! another idea: two-lined "arrows" in "launchpad" buttons could be replaced with one-lined "slashes". That would be more consistent.

About stop and refresh buttons:

Refresh is not an action average desktop users does for his/her folders. Nautilus automatically detects changes in the folders. There is no need for refresh button, except in the corner cases like having remote file mount which do not behave correctly. If we really need refresh it should go to menu only with shortcut key (F5).

Stop: The context of the stop button is when the file browser is loading something for a long time (network). Otherwise stop button is useless. Thus, it would make sense to **put the stop button to the context of the loading**. I.e. Stop button is displayed in the file browsing area with label "File browsing is still loading the folder view. Please press here to cancel." I am not sure if Nautilus has Firefox/Chrome style "top notification actions" like for saving password, but that would be perfect for the stop button.

@Psy[H]:

Please see my comment above. Stop and refresh buttons are definitely *not* essential if the computer is behaving as it should. They are just for corner cases which are not often encountered. Thus, polluting the normal user workflow screen estate with these button should be discouraged.

Psy[H[] (vovik-wfa) wrote :

Perhaps your attention for these two buttons is too captious.
I doubt that opening a folder with a lot of images is such a rare event to be ignored. Loading thumbnails is not only slow, but also makes system sluggish. In this case a way to pause and resume this process must be at hand.
And I doubt that this two buttons are able to pollute the view. And also nautilus is not always refreshes content, and it is ok, because draining resources for constant refreshing is also not good.

DM74S (danielsan474) wrote :

mockup 2:

- clicking on Home button (between right-left arrows) you should view the home/personal folder with a new view. System info, the xdg folders, and a link to classic view.

On breadcrumbs: for stop and refresh buttons you could follow menu items. You don't need buttons... these buttons are useless in 85% cases. For long time browsing, we could eventually put a message box after n seconds to stop.

DM74S (danielsan474) wrote :

in my mockup2, in space free aree we could put "personal" device for rapid access... an usb disk-key, an mp3reader device, a photocamera attached to the computer. Is what a user should see in "Computer" but with rights to mount/unmount (polikykit could help here)

kikl (kilian-klaiber) wrote :

I just opened a folder with nautilus. The folder contained 87 images and two videos. The folder is located on a server connected to this computer over a standard wifi connection. The thumbnails of the folder were displayed practically instantly in the nautilus file manager. Therefore, I think this is a non-issue for most users.

Whoever wants stop/refresh buttons on the GUI, should have the option using a customizable interface.

Regards,

kikl

I don't even like how Firefox has no labels on its buttons (e.g. "Home", "Back", etc.) while the rest of Gnome (a.k.a. Nauitlus) has labels (preferences set at System > Preferences > Appearance > Interface > "Text Below Items"... even if Firefox ignores this).

The reason Firefox ignores these preferences (e.g. takes away the text/labels) is for more screen space on the user's screen.

I'm in favour of getting rid of Firefox bookmark toolbar and bringing back the text below the icons, bringing both Firefox and Gnome/Nautilus in harmony.

The minimal Nautilus David is suggesting reminds me of the old style of Nautilus Ubuntu used to ship with (see my Wikipedia screenshot at: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d0/Ubuntu-desktop-2-410-20080706.png)

(sorry if I sent this twice... Launchpad is acting up)

Psy[H[] (vovik-wfa) wrote :

2 kikl
87 images may not be comparable with 500 or 1000. A quantity of photos on full sd card from photo camera.
Why there is such a rush to make interface of nautilus *primitive*? Removing duplicated buttons (three on the right) and reducing size of zoom controls would be enough.

> For long time browsing, we could eventually put a message box after n seconds to stop.

This is already there, right? If I try to open a certain folder or samba share which takes a while, then a message box appears with: "You can stop opening this folder by clicking cancel" or something like that.

I think that most users are quite ignorant about those buttons. The only users that will know what those buttons are for are power users and they will probably know that F5 will reload the folder (or Ctrl-R) and Esc will make it stop loading stuff. But then again: maybe they think that those shortcuts only work in an Internet browser and not in a file browser.

My mom (uses Ubuntu on her laptop) doesn't have a clue about what those buttons are for. My roommates (who make use of the kitchen pc that I set up) have a better understanding, but I have never seen them use those buttons.

The best thing that could be done is a case study, observe people working with Nautilus who don't know too much about pc's.

Pieter v (pvdvegte) wrote :

I am not sure if this is relevant, however one Nautilus change I think would be very useful would be to have as default the opening of folders in a new tab when you double-click.

Of course you would still have the option of just viewing the files in the current tab by clicking on the triangle/arrow instead.

There should then be the option to change this in the preferences menu.

I would also like to see an option to have an item in the places menu also open in a new tab when double-clicking.

Lorenzo (lorenzo-delledonne) wrote :

At this point, I think a brainstorm discussion for this issue would be far more suitable than a bug report...

DM74S (danielsan474) wrote :

Refresh is "a state of mind", and this action could be between zero and Inf+. We should take a decision, split this distribution of times in two parts, what people think about a long-wait and not. 3 sec? 4 sec? more?

Local browsing, low number of files in a folder:
1. Joe open nautilus window and browse files...
2. Joe click on refresh button and all is good (less than 1 sec)

Local browsing, high number of files in a folder:
1. Joe open nautilus window for last year photos (around 1000)
2. Time step over 3 seconds, nautilus show a transient message with a stop button
3. Joe click stop

Network browsing for windirectories:
1. Joe open nautilus window and browse network dirs
2. Time step over 3 seconds, a new transient message with a stop button..
3. Joe don't click, transient message/window disappear after files come up

Andreas Nilsson (andreasn) wrote :

Here is a comparison between the size of the chrome (gray) and the area where you see the actual files (green) in the default nautilus window size on a new (guest) account. This does not take into account tabs or the bar that appears when you're about copy files to a writable cd.
Solving this bug would mean more space for the green area.

With my icon designer hat on, icons such as Visualization in Rhythmbox benefit from a label, as it's a much less common symbol in our everyday lives than arrows (that are practically everywhere), so I don't believe dropping the labels from those icons will impact notably on the learnability of the interface.

antistress (antistress) wrote :

for those who want to remove zoom buttons, did you notice that you can change the zoom factor using the mouse wheel on them ? It's very practical.
Besides, considering the zomm factor, Nautilus display more or less information in icon view : folder name or folder name + content or folder name + content + date
It can be useful

moomex (moomex) wrote :

> 2. What does the Stop button do?

I'm sorry but I laughed when I read this sentence. Seriously, I've been using gnome for almost 8 years and I've never used the stop button. It should definitely be removed

l-x-l (labouie) wrote :

I'll add my .02 cents. I prefer the Dolphin breadcrumb style above all others that I've seen.

@Psy[H[] :

On 640x480 Nautilus window (assumed default file browser window size on modern setup) current Stop and Reload buttons take about 128 x 64 pixels space. That's 2.6% of window screen estate.

Let's assume average Ubuntu user users Nautilus window 1 hours a day without pressing those buttons. If we convert this screen estate directly to used work time this is 1.56 minutes
of user eye time in a day. Note that this is the time when the user does not need the functionality of stop and refresh buttons - I estimate the time when the user needs stop functionality, e.g. when
browsing large thumbnail folders, to be average 15 seconds a day which is so small amount that it is not even comparable.

Let's assume the average user uses Ubuntu on 250 days a year. During one year, the average user watches stop and refresh button 390 minutes, or 6.5 hours.

Let's assume the time is as expense as going to see movies (as we are *watching* something in both cases). In 6.5 hours we can see three movies á 10€. Thus, the user has
spent 30€ by watching stop and reload buttons instead of watching movies in a year.

Let's assume there are two million average Ubuntu users. That makes 2 000 000 * 30€/year = 60 million euros/year.

***By removing stop and reload button we can save 60 million euros in a year***.

The numbers are not scientific, but I hope you got my point this time.

The lesson for everyone: please do not generalize user interface use cases based on your own specialized workflows.

Donatello (donatellogiraudo) wrote :

Hi everybody.

I think it was a good idea to see this movie:
http://smspillaz.wordpress.com/2009/06/27/notes-from-a-gnome-3-mockup/

the modified nautilus might the "colombo egg"

hehehehe

Psy[H[] (vovik-wfa) wrote :

Now we have a useless buttons and proposal to just remove them as in "no man - no problem".
Yes, "stop" button is useless now. So make it useful, give it a function and put it in as addable option. Make customizable panel with minimalistic default arrangement. That would be satisfactory in this direction of discussion.

2 Mikko Ohtamaa
that's really funny computation.
And you think that there is so negligibly few users who browse folders with photos in nautilus? and all ow them have top hardware configuration for thousands of thumbnails to load in a moment without affecting system?
What would average users say after switching from windows, where there is no system slowdown on loading thumbnails, to ubuntu, where system becomes sluggish while loading them? Athlon 3000+, 1GB RAM; Core Duo 1,6, 1GB RAM - not top, but still not bad. But loading thumbnails in nautilus is a pain on them.

@Psy[H[]:

> What would average users say after switching from windows, where there is no system slowdown on loading thumbnails, to ubuntu, where system becomes sluggish while loading them? Athlon 3000+, 1GB RAM; Core Duo 1,6, 1GB RAM - not top, but still not bad. But loading thumbnails in nautilus is a pain on them.

Yes. This is definitely a problem. I hate it when Nautilus is slow to respond. The thumbnail loading must be fixed.

If there is not yet a bug report regarding it then maybe you could open a new one if you are able to repeat this problem in a reliable manner? If there some kind of benchmark "folder of thousand jpegs" which can be compared across Linux distributions, KDE, GNOME and Windows, the developers can precise feedback so that can work to improve this feature.

kikl (kilian-klaiber) wrote :

Loading thumbnails is only sluggish if you want a preview of the images. You can switch that off under edit preferences preview. Then you get to see the respective icons instantly. Even if it takes time to load the previews, you can browse the file manager, while the previews are loading, because the icons of the respective files are instantly visible. The icons are gradually exchanged by the previews. So that doesn't hinder you from navigating through the files. If you're opening a folder with thousands of files, you could also choose list view or compact view, which loads much quicker and is easier to navigate. So there are plenty workarounds at the moment....

"Make customizable panel with minimalistic default arrangement. That would be satisfactory in this direction of discussion..."

I completely agree with this approach. This is how it should be done. The default GUI should be minimalistic, such that the novice or casual user may easily understand it. Power users or users with specific needs and wishes should have the option to customize the interface according to their needs. There is no single solution that fits everybody. If you try to do that, you get a cluttered interface nobody likes.

Jake Tolbert (crazybilly) wrote :

I've always felt, particularly on 15" and 14" laptop screens that Nautilus' icons were bigger than they were useful.

How can we move this discussion beyond 'here's my preferences'? What's the best way to approach user testing so this paper cut gets resolved?

Nick Glynn (exosyst) wrote :

Is it worth linking this bug up with the one at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/382626 as even though they're not an exact match it seems evident that an overhaul of nautilus' interface would be welcome.

Sami Pesonen (sampeson) wrote :

I also made one mockup more with text under the buttons. This is because it should follow the generic Gnome preference do you want to have text under the buttons or not. I think the default buttons with text are ok.

I moved the Computer button to places (also can be found from Go menu in case left panel is not used).

Combined the reload button with stop button. If loading something you need to stop before you can refresh.

Removed Zoom and view drop down list, they can be found from view menu. Removed one before button (those down arrow buttons), left one with same functionality as in Firefox so can go back and forth from there if needed.

Moved path next to buttons, nothing else on right side.

And Finally combined Places in the left with tree view.

I think these changes would not be too dramatic from end user point of view but would give more space for actual information what you are browsing, also it is easier to find files when you can use tree mode in left. Power users can still disable text under buttons but also novice users can understand for what purpose buttons are for.

Andrew Conkling (andrewski) wrote :

Some upstream action:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42834 (requesting the ability to customize the toolbar)
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=509660 (moving the Zoom and View As controls to the main toolbar, complete with a needs-work patch)

Changed in nautilus:
status: Unknown → Confirmed
Changed in nautilus (Ubuntu):
status: Confirmed → Triaged
Phylum (metus-m) wrote :

Really useful!
I'm hoping to see lots of changes to Natuilus on the next release of Ubuntu.
The Back, forward, home and all the buttons across that toolbar, together with the labels, they're very huge, almost twice the size of the icons on firefox!

A package for the brave;
https://launchpad.net/~0-launchpad-mejlamej-nu/+archive/ppa

Note that this is just WIP and far from ready, it's just to get the feeling for how it could work, not to be installed on your primary desktop ;-) I could post some screenshots later.

Screenshot of WIP.
Planned is to combine refresh/stop to one button.

antistress (antistress) wrote :

Marcus Carlson : how the zoom button is supposed to work ? You replace 2 buttons (zoom + and zoom -) with only one ?
And will the user be able to change zoom factor with mouse wheel like tday (see my comment 83) ?
As i said comment 51, i don't want to trade usability for a bit of space

antistress, the magnifier you see in the screenshot is not the zoom, it's the search function.
Otherwise no changes.

antistress (antistress) wrote :

Therefore you remove the possibilty for the user to adjust zoom factor with its mouse wheel.

antistress (antistress) wrote :

Marcus Carlson : please send another mockup with text under icons to see how your idea behave in all configurations. Is the location bar still visible ?

antistress wrote
Therefore you remove the possibilty for the user to adjust zoom factor with its mouse wheel.

Well, no, ctrl + mouse wheel will still be available.

Location bar is still there if you press ctrl + L or via menu. To hidden?

Please try the package if you'd like to test it out. Otherwise I'll post more screenshots when the combined stop/refresh is done.

Vish (vish) wrote :

@Marcus Carlson:
Can the 2 zoom buttons + the use normal size button , be shifted to the status bar?

But i dont see the point, its not frequently used anyway. But will make things easy for the users who do use it.

Vish (vish) wrote :

Or even the menu bar, on the top right? If statusbar buttons is not a simple task

Status update;
I've now completed the combined stop/refresh button and new packages [1] should be available soon. Attached is screenshots of the different toolbar states.

Comments?

[1] https://launchpad.net/~0-launchpad-mejlamej-nu/+archive/ppa

antistress (antistress) wrote :

Marcus Carlson :
1°) at present time, using mouse whell forszooming in or out is rather intuitive since you only have to point zoom buttons and to use mouse wheel. No need for combination : keyboard (ctrl) + mouse (wheel)

2°) When i said "please send another mockup with text under icons to see how your idea behave in all configurations. Is the location bar still visible ?"
i wanted to say : "to see if there is enough space on the only toolbar to display both big buttons with text under (=default setting in GNOME & Ubuntu) and "Location Bar" on the same row"
thanks in advance

David, whats your comment on the mouse wheel zooming comment by antistress?

antistress, sorry, I forgot that screenshot. Attached now.

Donatello (donatellogiraudo) wrote :

Hi.

For the zoom option, it's possible to have an control like openoffice in the status bar?
http://static.blogo.it/ossblog/openoffice-30-beta-1/big_03writer.png

Thanks
Donatello

Vish (vish) wrote :

@Marcus Carlson:
Could we *exclude the drop down arrows when inactive* ?
ie. the drop down arrow is shown *only* for any location history having more than 2 items.
Maybe the Up button could be squeezed-in ;)

Also your latest icon-text shows this bug> https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/390724 ,
the back button is oddly smaller than the rest of the buttons.

mac_v, I've begin talking to upstream too see what they think about these changes before doing anything more.

For the interested I've created jaunty packages [1] to play with.

[1] https://launchpad.net/~0-launchpad-mejlamej-nu/+archive/ppa

Vish (vish) wrote :

@Marcus: sure, no problem...

I'v been using your ppa in Karmic, and my observations:

1: I Find the lack of the "Up" Button crippling.
I would even suggest replacing the "Home" button with the "Up" button.
But I have realized there is more space wasted due to the 2 drop down buttons.
We could remove one drop down button and reduce its size , This is allows us to Add the "Up" button without compromising the space.
The single button can function like firefox's drop down menu.

I'v attached a mockup of the idea...

2: You might already be aware of this, but just to bring to your attention.
The Appearance Preferences > Interface > Toolbar Button labels option has no effect.

Vish (vish) wrote :

Oh... and before people jump on the "Up" not needed because of breadcrumbs.
"Up" is more useful than the "Home" , since "Home" takes you to one specific folder,
While using "Up" you can go to any parent folder. Without moving the mouse , by just repetitive clicking in one location, which is easier than using Bread crumbs.

Psy[H[] (vovik-wfa) wrote :

Agree. And we do not need Home button, since Home is a place and the best place for a place is places :)

DM74S (danielsan474) wrote :

Great job Marcus!

Only two things:

1. we could move Home and Search icons to "places" area, we need to free space on main toolbar. I didn't like the double url-bar and search-bar.

2. in Places area, Home reference is ok, instead for Search (icon + "Search" label) we could have an input text field. We don't need to click on a search-icon, open a windows or whatever and digit some text; we could write directly on that field. If Joe wants more, could open an extended search window if needed...

DM74S (danielsan474) wrote :

I made some changes on Marcus mockup to explain my latest ideas...

1. for url-bar (a power-user solutions to browse) CTRL-L like firefox and other apps
2. for location I made a mockup but I not so sure that could be usefull. We have already Go menu in toolbar and "less-is-more".

I didn't put my breadcrumb mockup here (take a look to my latest mockup)

mac_v 1) About the drop down buttons I agree they take up a lot of space and by using Firefox style you mean right clicking the button?
mac_v 2) Yes I know, I've hardcoded it. Do we want to use the global setting for nautilus? Personally I've never liked it because the applications I used a lot I may just use the icons, but new applications or rarely used I might want to have the text as extra help - but that's off topic.

Anyway, thanks for trying the package! :)

Danielsan474 1) Can't it be psychological to have a Home icon to click if I get lost?
Danielsan474 2) Input textfield in the menu??

DM74S (danielsan474) wrote :

on nautilus-human-danielsan.png mockup:

1. like someone wrotes here, HOME is a place so I put this item in left-area (aka "Places" area)
2. I like the two-status concept of Refresh-Stop and I place this icon-button between Backward and Forward icons. If I don't want go back or go forward, I could make just like "a little jump" (refresh) where I am now.

The users-blog-experience gives some hints (think about the breadcrumb). Why don't assume the widget idea too for left-area? A widget for search, places, folders, ecc.

my 2 cents

Danielsan474 - ahh, I now see what you mean.

DM74S (danielsan474) wrote :

marcus 1) Can't it be psychological to have a Home icon to click if I get lost?

yes, it could be but Home is a place, not an action (go backward, make a jump-refresh, go forward). The same for Search. In fireforx we didn't have a left-area to put these items.

marcus 2) Input textfield in the menu??

No, input textfield in left-area (aka "Places")

DM74S (danielsan474) wrote :

Looking forward...

since my left-area concept share some ideas with gnome-shell project, this one should be an optional in long-run. It depend on what a user want to do: click on Activities (gnome-shell) every time or use search-places-folders in nautilus window.

Vish (vish) wrote :

@Marcus ,
The Firefox style , i think you got it from Danielsan's explanation... if not, firefox drop-down shows both the Back & Forward locations

Other problems I found
1: The Search button is too close to breadcrumbs , its now easier to trigger this bug > https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/57210

2: Right side is very empty.
I have attached a screenshot of my setup [it the same as yours but I'v added separators, before the breadcrumbs ,also i replaced Home with Up, other than that it is the same] > It Shows the emptiness of the right side

To avoid the search bug, I'v added a mockup,
Its better to move it to the search to the right, just to the left of the spinner.
This also partially negates the emptiness of the right side of the browser.

antistress (antistress) wrote :

* About the Search button/field :

Danielsan474 said (comment 114) :
"instead for Search (icon + "Search" label) we could have an input text field. We don't need to click on a search-icon, open a windows or whatever and digit some text; we could write directly on that field. If Joe wants more, could open an extended search window if needed..."
It would be a giood idea to save consistency through GNOME applications.
GTKFileChooser already has a good UI for Search : an entry in the sidepane that replace the location field with a saerch field. We should do the same.

mac_v (comment 121) : Moving the the Search button away from the other doesn't seem a good idea to me in terms of usability

* About the location button :
Marcus Carlson : the location perfectly works, i don't think it should be removed

Vish (vish) wrote :

antistress wrote: " Moving the the Search button away from the other doesn't seem a good idea to me in terms of usability"

Could you explain why?
But my reasons for suggesting moving search to the right:
The search is not the most commonly used navigation ,
If you use the ppa , you will realize that the browser on the right looks very empty.
   A good design should not cram everything on one side and leave the other side empty. there should be a balance.
The previous search button was the right-most button,in Firefox too ,the search bar is on the right, so this doesnt break anything.

I think the design team should take a look at the present version Marcus has done and make suggestions on the design aesthetics.

Upstream has said they won't commit any patch that will change the toolbar and instead encourage working on the toolbar editor. (As I will try to do)

Will they not even consider changes to the location of the zoom options nor
the stop/reset amalgamation as those wouldn't really be fixed by an editor.

2009/7/18 Marcus Carlson <email address hidden>

> Upstream has said they won't commit any patch that will change the
> toolbar and instead encourage working on the toolbar editor. (As I will
> try to do)
>
> --
> Nautilus file browser toolbar is complicated, redundant, and ugly
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/386150
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>

Vish (vish) wrote :

@Marcus Carlson: So does that mean this bug can be closed?
What about your ppa? would you stop working on it?
Either way, really appreciate the effort you took so far for this bug. :)

Also, any links/reports or discussions regarding the toolbar editor work ,would be nice

mac_v, as far as I know Ubuntu doesn't want to have a lot of patches to drag along, so continue working on this is just a waste of time, correct David?
But if Ubuntu would like to have patch for this I'd be willing to help.

The upstream bug for a toolbar editor is at [1] and there is an old patch. My plan is to first bring this patch up to date and if I manage to get that far I'll see what I could do after that.

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42834

antistress (antistress) wrote :

The upstream bug for a toolbar editor will not solve everything since everybody here seems agree to say that Home and Computer should be only in sidepane and sidepane is not configurable to add Computer

antistress (antistress) wrote :

Besides i've never find the Nautilus Search UI to be intuitive. It's very hard to understand as far as i'm concerned.
Maybe the only Search button/entry effect should be to launch a dedicated application (gnome-search-tool today (or a GUI for Beagle/Tracker), Zeitgeist tomorrow for instance) ?

Psy[H[] (vovik-wfa) wrote :

Mounted media is already in side-panel, So there is no need for this fake "computer" thing anywhere

antistress (antistress) wrote :

indeed

antistress (antistress) wrote :

concerning my comment 130, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=428568 is related

toobuntu (toobuntu) wrote :

To those who advocate removing the 'up' button: I disagree. It was removed in Windows Vista, and someone had to make a shareware app to put it back in. There are those of us who think linearly, and who use the location bar by default. For us, it is a lot faster to use the up button than to use breadcrumbs (which does not fit with the way our minds work).

Please include a preference option for it to be put back in. Even better, allow full customization of the toolbar like Firefox does.

> Even better, allow full customization of the toolbar like Firefox does.

Working on it :) For more info see [1] or look at the WIP screenshot [2]

[1] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42834
[2] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=138712&action=view

tags: added: gnome gui nautilus

Great work, everyone, but it is clear that this is not trivial to fix, and therefore is not a paper cut.

Changed in hundredpapercuts:
milestone: round-4 → none
status: Confirmed → Invalid
seamus (rostiku) wrote :

My two user`s cents:
1. Let the Location bar distinct : it allows to display large paths
and
2. Let the Location bar distinct : it allows to display LARGE PATHS!

antistress (antistress) wrote :

i agree with seamus : Let the Location bar distinct to display large paths
Besides :
- improve nautilus search http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=428568
- Sidebar should categorize items displayed with headings http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=508404

ShawnJGoff (shawn-goff) wrote :

I much prefer the having the button to switch between breadcrumbs and text url. We're talking about getting rid of redundancy, if we have both, it's just plain horrible. If you use the button that switches the breadcrumbs to the text, it stays that way when you open nautilus next time. Also, if the breadcrumb buttons are changed as discussed above, it will be able to display more path.

I dislike the idea of a switching button, it seems indecisive.

If you take a look at the explorer breadcrumbs link i posted previously the
idea is that there is no need for a toggle button, click a location to go
back/forward, double click to convert to text, arrows in between to allow
branching from previous directory.

I do like the idea of moving Computer/Home to the Side Pane though, lots of
space eaten up needlessly otherwise.

I always find I use Up and Back more than I use forward though, might just
be me though :D

2009/7/21 ShawnJGoff <email address hidden>

> I much prefer the having the button to switch between breadcrumbs and
> text url. We're talking about getting rid of redundancy, if we have
> both, it's just plain horrible. If you use the button that switches the
> breadcrumbs to the text, it stays that way when you open nautilus next
> time. Also, if the breadcrumb buttons are changed as discussed above, it
> will be able to display more path.
>
> --
> Nautilus file browser toolbar is complicated, redundant, and ugly
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/386150
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>

I hope you guys are not serious about inflicting this on your users.

If you want to simplify things, the gnome guys already did it for you years ago, with spatial nautilus (you know, the default nautilus mode that Ubuntu specifically patched out to not be the default?), which was the hallmark of simplicity/minimalism/usability* (and is the default in Fedora, from what I've seen).

Crippling the "browser mode" of nautilus (which is for users that can't stand spatial nautilus' minimalism) will pretty much result in angering those users, and usability-conscious people just recommending others to avoid ubuntu desktops because Canonical keeps doing parallel work and doing away with the principles set forth by gnome (ignoring the desktop's toolbar label settings? seriously?!).

Unless gnome decides that this is the new canon that should be implemented on all apps, of course.

Just my warning/2 cents. I don't really care that much on a personal level, in the grand scheme of things, the people will decide if this is a good or bad thing, and I can still use spatial nautilus.

* http://www.osnews.com/story/7548

Vish (vish) on 2009-07-21
description: updated
summary: - Nautilus file browser toolbar is complicated, redundant, and ugly
+ Nautilus file browser toolbar is complicated, needs a face-lift
description: updated
description: updated
Rich Jones (richwjones) wrote :

If the overhaul is already being done, how about adding this:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/410082

Trivial fix, adds a lot of power though

Caloy (printafter) on 2009-12-01
Changed in hundredpapercuts:
assignee: nobody → Caloy (printafter)
assignee: Caloy (printafter) → nobody
Kai Mast (kai-mast) wrote :

So waht about this? I really love the way nautilus was changed. Maybe for 10.10?

Changed in nautilus:
status: Confirmed → Invalid
Changed in nautilus (Ubuntu):
assignee: Ubuntu Desktop Bugs (desktop-bugs) → nobody
Changed in nautilus:
importance: Unknown → Medium
status: Invalid → Expired
Dmitry Shachnev (mitya57) wrote :

Fixed in Nautilus 3.x / Ubuntu 11.10

Changed in nautilus (Ubuntu):
status: Triaged → Fix Released
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