Cheap in-game Help

[SirVer]

As a totally awesome, overcool online help with cross linking and layouting is still some time away, I suggest adding a "cheap" help to widelands in build 17.

The idea is that basically every window gets a "?" button which opens a window with a textarea explaining what's going on here. The texts could be saved in external files (for example lua scripts) which would make translating easier as it does away with layouting more easily. This is an easy enhancement that only requires a lot of writing and a bit more code.

Note that I feel that this a 80% solution, but better than the nothing we currently have.

[Hans Joachim Desserud (hjd)]

In-game help, especially with links going back and forth would be awesome.
I'm unsure why you label it as online help, though. Could you elaborate a bit there? Shouldn't the help files be available locally without Internet connection as well?

[SirVer (sirver)]

I miswrote, of course I meant ingame help. I corrected the name of this bug.

As mentioned, this is not about a help with images and links between topics (that would be my 100% solution; i always drool when I take a look at wesnoth's help). What i suggest with this bug report is a cheap help window with a plaintext very much like settlers 2 had. Just to give the user some kind of reference in game.

[Hans Joachim Desserud (hjd)]

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

[Hans Joachim Desserud (hjd)]

Note that currently it is impossible to add help-section to buildings. See bug 696251 for details.

[SirVer (sirver)]

Bug 696251 has been fixed and it makes up for a good chunk of this very bug. If someone wants to work on this, he should take the lua help script approach I took in bug 696251. I suggest waiting for a while until the needs of documentation writers becomes more apparent.

[SirVer (sirver)]

Note that bug 750400 is related to this.

[SirVer (sirver)]

The framework is in place. Astuur and Venatrix have begone the work but I have no idea what the state is. I think having something plain text and very simple for build 17 is still viable and a good idea. Done is better than perfect.

[SirVer (sirver)]

Astuur, I assigned you because I want to hear your opinion on #7.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Blush --- I am not really used to being "assigned" :)

Well Sirver, my last post from the 23.1.12 still stands uncommented here -

http://wl.widelands.org/forum/post/6973/

I was hoping for some additions, most prominently a way to make a box,
but this seems all abit complicated.
I have not been able to do any further work since then, and only now I emerge a bit
from my RL workload. Just _a bit_ unfortunately from a workload I could not anticipate.

I will, however, see what other buildings I can finish.
Venetrix, can you please make the lua file available that produced the screenshot from your last posting?
I want to learn, how you did this, and see whether I can myself use the features.
Otherwise I'd still need somebody to convert my .wpd (Wordperfect) files or .pdfs to lua.

[SirVer (sirver)]

>Blush --- I am not really used to being "assigned" :)
Well, this is your bug :)

I cannot speak for Venatrix and all questions concerning nicer
formatting will need to be answered with "not at this point in time". I
wish I could work more on widelands, but my thesis is in a critical
state and everything WL is currently strictly critical stuff.

That said, having plain text - or very simple formatted - help would
help already a ton and would be a good feature to have for b17.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Edited pdf

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Edited ascii file

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

First version of Astuur’s Deep Coal Mine help in Lua.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

The format_help.lua needed in the scripting folder.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

We have agreed to place files here, while (for a broader audience) the discussion of things related to the Cheap in-game help
stays at out homepage at http://wl.widelands.org/forum/topic/903/

Next, in order to work economically, is the small barbarian coalmine :)
So here it is.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

and the ascii file.

[SirVer (sirver)]

I already lost track.... Is the work flow correct as follows? Astuur makes texts (in ASCII), chuck proofreads them, venatrix turns them into lua? If so, is it correct, that I only have to add the lua files in the correct place? Could you then add the files with "MERGE PLEASE to /barbarians/deep_coalmine/help.lua or something along these lines?

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

The next one. The Barbarian Deeper Coalmine

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

The Barbarian Deeper Coalmine as ASCII

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Deeper Coal Mine as PDF - proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Deeper Coal Mine as ascii - proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Coal Mine as PDF - proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Coal Mine as ASCII - proofed

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

@SirVer: Yes, the workflow seems to be that way. And yes, you just have to add them in the right place.
Do you mean, you want the info where to put the files? Because I don’t feel they are ready to really be merged into game right now…

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

New version of the format.lua.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Newest version of the Barbarian Coal Mine.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Adjusted version of the Deep Coal Mine.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

First version of the Deeper Coal Mine.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Yes, almost forgot: This arrow is needed for the dependencies rows.

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

Sorry, guys (and ladies) but would a branch with all .lua files added be a better idea?
This way you can upload pdf only on this bugreport (for discussion/show) and who wants to try it can simply merge the branch. I think it will ensure no file is missing, when it will be merged to trunk.

If you have any problem I can create this branch with the latest version of your files and (if I understand how - hints?) make it public or at least restricted. What do you think?

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

I found I cannot create a branch where everyone can upload, since only members of "Widelands Developers" can.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

It would certainly be better. But I don’t know how to use branches except from downloading and compiling… And I’m no member of the Widelands Developers.

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@Venatrix:
it's quite easy; I've just sent a PM to you with a step-by-step approach.

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

"And I’m no member of the Widelands Developers."

Chuck it's a member. What do you think, chuck, about creating a small "ingamehelp-team" in order to have a team that can create and share a branch for that?

If you disagree, I've just PMed Venatrix with a method for creating a branch on launchpad or I can push a branch with all modifications you're doing. This will increase the working chain (astuur-> chuck -> venatrix -> me), but it's not a problem for me...

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

sorry for this triple-posting, but just found that *anyone* could create a team.

and if you have a team, you may have a shared branch...

Developers, will you approve a Widelands-ingamehelp" team?
members: astuur, chuck and venatrix and maybe anyone who want to join their efforts...

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@#34 "What do you think, chuck, about creating a small "ingamehelp-team" in order to have a team that can create and share a branch for that?"

A branch for the in-game help effort will certainly be a good vehicle to keep things organized. The attachments to this bug report are growing faster than I realized they would. :) I've not set up a team before, but I'm willing to try, though the act may require SirVer as he is the administrator.

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@#36
"I've not set up a team before, but I'm willing to try, though the act may require SirVer as he is the administrator."

not sure If you'll need Sirver (https://help.launchpad.net/Teams/CreatingAndRunning) but it's of course a good idea having his approval... :)

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@# 37
We'll need SirVer's action on this. I do not have administrator rights on the Widelands-Dev project only the Widelands-Media project and that won't get us to where we wish to be. ;)

So I will ask for his assistance (and approval) in this matter.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Hope, all this is not getting too complicated,
but since I don't have any experience, (and no better idea either) I'll try to comply.
Just tell me what I should do, when all is setup and done.

Here is the next building:
Barbarian Deeper Ironore mine.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

and the Ascii text

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@#38 "won't get us to where we wish to be."

just to know, because I'm not really inside launchpad and I'd like to better understand: do you need admin rights in order to create a team and, after that, creating a branch owned by this team? Members of the team would be able to push to that branch. When everything will be ok, the usual merge-request procedure is followed.

sorry for insistence

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Deeper Ironore Mine - PDF - proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Deeper Ironore Mine - ascii - proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@#41
"just to know, because I'm not really inside launchpad and I'd like to better understand: do you need admin rights in order to create a team and, after that, creating a branch owned by this team? Members of the team would be able to push to that branch. When everything will be ok, the usual merge-request procedure is followed."

My understanding is that while any Launchpad participant can create a "team", it requires an administrator of a particular "project" to provide that "team" with the appropriate level of access to that "project". The creator of the team can define the rights of the team members regarding the branch(es) produced by the team, but association with a particular project requires action by one of that project' s administrators. After that, your assumption above should be correct, again depending on how the team is initially set up.

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

Ok, my idea was that no real association with the project would be needed, exactly like a single-user branch is associated to a project only because is a branch of the trunk of this project, nothing more.
Anyway, let's wait for Sirver.

Thanks for patience you had explaining me your point.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@#45
Your idea of a free-standing branch would, in all likelihood, work quite satisfactorily, but in light of the planned ultimate destination of the work, i.e. implemented into Widelands, I think it best to associate the branch(es) with the project right from the start, if only for a "paper trail". ;)

Thanks for putting up with my little "idiosyncracies". :D

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Barbarian Deep Ore Mine
(sorry Chuck for making you double correct some mistakes; must have used the wrong template. Hope I got it sorted out now.)

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Barbarian Deep Ore Mine
ASCII

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@#47
It looks like you are catching most of the "glitches" now. ;)

Barbarian Deep Ironore Mine_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Deep Ironore Mine_ascii_proofed

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Right, I’ll work on the iron mines tomorrow, the gold mines are almost done, too.

I’ll try to get a branch working…

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Next:

Barbarian Ironone Mine (.pdf)

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Barbarian Ironore Mine (ASCII)

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

@Venatrix: please replace "Armoursmith" with "Helmsmith" etc. in all your B_ output files.
This change slipped my attention when I adapted the file from my original template which was for the Empire.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Next one:

Barbarian_Deeper_ Goldmine

I have myself done this, mainly to have the "in depth" side ready.
@Venatrix: There are a few changes regarding time etc.
PLease compare to your work.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

... and the ASCII.txt

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Iron Ore Mine_PDF_proofed

NO CORRECTIONS! Good Job!

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Iron Ore Mine_ascii_proofed

No corrections needed.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Added the iron and gold mines (hope the times are correct) to my branch.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Deeper Gold Mine_PDF_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Deeper Gold Mine_ASCII_proofed

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Here is the Barbarian Battle Arena:
There are some new pngs that need to be copied to the widelands\pics directory. (attached as .7z)

@Venatrix: I have tried to make your job a little easier by rearranging things a bit on the "At a glance side".
I am not such a big fan of actually showing 12 trunk pngs, when 12x [trunk] would do just as well, but you seem to prefer it
this way, so I have complied and done likewise.

I have not rearrange much on the "In Depth" side; I hope, that when the time comes for formatting this, we may have other options available. Just keep on ignoring the side.

@ Chuck: I have managed to produce a text based pdf this time, with only very minor flaws in the layout.
But since proofing means text, not layout, it should not matter. Correcting my mistakes should be a little easier now.
HTH
Both of you-- thanks for your ongoing help!

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbaraian Granitemine_PDF_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbaraian Granitemine_ascii_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian BattleArena_PDF_proofed

The embedded text does, in fact, help speed the commenting process. Thanks!

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian BattleArena_ASCII_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@#65
I'll add the png files with my next push to trunk.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Chuck,
you're twice giving the correction "BattleArena" .
Is it really with a capital "A" in the middle of the word?
that would be impossible in (proper) German.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

I'm trying to adhere to the naming conventions found in the game whenever possible, treating the phrases as if they are "proper nouns" as opposed to general descriptions.

[SirVer (sirver)]

I am following this bug report and I am pro making a team in launchpad for your efforts. Angelo, thank for volunteering to bring the data into a branch. It makes things much easier for me and others who want to test your efforts.

I made a new team: widelands-help-dev which is a member of widelands-dev. I added all of you to the team. You should be able to push to a branch in the name of widelands-dev now; I suggest widelands-dev/widelands/help_development. I will be available to sort out any remaining technicalities.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Guess, I should be flattered.
hmm... yet another riddle for me to solve.
Until I have a clear idea how to use Bazaar on which branch using which commands I'll upload my files here.
Anyhow it will be less in the next week. RL kicking in again.

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

I created the branch as suggested by Sirver and merged all work done on Venatrix's branch.

I think now everyone involved can follow these steps:

bzr branch lp:~widelands-dev/widelands/help_development (first time only)

bzr pull
commit locally and then
bzr push lp:~widelands-dev/widelands/help_development

Other than that, I can help Venatrix in creating lua files (I've looked at those files and it seems doable, for me). I've not lot of time, but if we find a way to divide workload I could help you.

Also, maybe another way to manage workflow could be proposed: like Astuur pushing a help.lua.txt file in the correct folder; chuck reviewing it renaming (via bzr move) to help.lua.txt.ok (or something similar) and me and Venatrix converting it to a proper help.lua file.

Or we can use a sort of mailing list to exchange files (without crowding this bug report - currently 78 comments!)

what do you think?

@Sirver:
Any suggestion for the workflow? And are the steps for working with the branch right?
I simply branched on my machine, merged Venatrix's work and pushed to LP (no merge-proposal involved). Is it ok?

@Astuur (#76): I think reading http://wl.widelands.org/wiki/BzrPrimer/ would help you.

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@chuk (#72) maybe now you can add pngs to our branch...

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

Astuur, I hope you do not mind if I assign the team

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

The more of this bureaucratic management overhead you take onto your shoulders, the happier I will be, Angelo :)

Sorry Guys, but for now (as in "at least today") , I don't have the time to fiddle around with Bazaar stuff.
I once had it up and running, but can't master the new setup necessary.
And quite frankly, I am not in the mood to even try.

I don't doubt your decison to use a version control software - in fact I am certain, it will help a lot later, but for the moment, please spare me that hassle.

Keep in mind please, that none of the files I am contributing will ever be needed or even be useful again, once the .lua files are ready.
The pdfs are just a slight hint (already modified to cope with the existing formatting) of how the .lua might finally look.
And the ASCII files are (hopefully) helpfull for cutting and pasting the stuff to where it needs to go.
So, if we keep up the workflow and Chuck could be kind enough to fetch my files from here, but send his proofed versions to the new branch, we can all be happy.
( I can get his files and correct my sources through the web based interface)

I probably can't do much tomorrow and tuesday anyhow, so sorry.
But I'll try

Anyway here is the Barbarian Warmill

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian_Trainingscamp_help_ASCII_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian_Trainingscamp_help_PDF_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian_Warmill_help_ASCII_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian_Warmill_help_PDF_proofed

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Managed to make one at least:

The Barbarian Axefactory
That'll be all for today.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Now all buildings here are set. I made some changes to the content of the War Mill and the Axefactory especially in the Outgoing part. Please have a look, if it’s right…

If there are things that are too disturbing or definitely need to be changed, let me know. :-)

I think, I’ll try some of the smaller buildings tomorrow on my own, starting with the Ranger and the Lumberjack. It’s quite possible that the result is more spartan than if I have a draft from Astuur. ;-)
Angelo, you can try other ones on your own, if you like.

[SirVer (sirver)]

This is developing very nicely! Great job from you all. It is much
appreciated.

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@Venatrix: your idea about removing attachments no more needed is great.

Maybe we can continue in this way, removing all files that have been already processed (_proofed, txt, pdf etc); Final outputs (help.lua) are already in the branch.

On the other hand, in Astuur's files the in depth section could remain useful for the future.

What do you think?

> Angelo, you can try other ones on your own, if you like.
I think I'd prefer converting to lua more than creating a file from the scratch.
I could use existing help.lua files as a guide.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

I would delete the non-proofed files only because of the in depth part. I just didn’t dare it, because I haven’t uploaded them. :-)

The hardest thing for making one file from scratch is to gather the informations wanted. I read about the html-help, where Astuur has his informations from, if I got this right, but I don’t have a clue, where to find it… Hints?
Oh, yes, the lore section isn’t easy too. I hope, you like my idea for the ranger, the lumberjack was originated from SirVer. ;-)

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@Venatrix (#92)
the html-help is generated running ./widelands --write_HTML=yes
it will generates 3 xhtml files in tribes/<tribe> folder

in order to generate it for all tribes i suggest to run
./widelands --write_HTML=yes --editor

remember that the value will be memorized so next time is better to run
./widelands --write_HTML=no for normal play

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Axefactory_pdf_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian Axefactory_ASCII_proofed

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Hey Venatrix.... I KNOW you dont like my in depth stuff :D
But as far as this currently ongoing efforts are concerned, I think you're right.
So don't be shy deleting those file.
I keep my version anyhow for a time
when someone realizes that a help system should be more than
an enumaration of facts.

I am starting to wonder, whether the "Lore" section really fits into
the "at a glance" part.
No, I am not being cynical :)

We have all tried to keep this short, just a quote, a saving or so,
but as it is so short it can hardly compensate for the relatively
sober rest.
Also, it may become increasingly hard to find something for each and every
house.
Perhaps we should call this a "quick info" rather than a help file, and keep
the attempts to create a bit of an atmosphere for a longer version?
Either for the "in depth" version or maybe as a real manual?
Just a thought.

I have imported all lua files ( from the houses and in /scripting)
into my installation, and the extra pngs. (Manually)
But WL crashes without any message when I click on any help button.
I must have missed something, I guess.

Perhaps Chuck could verify that is is actually working on Windows?
I know he has a Windows installation (among other OSes).

So I cannot see your new lua files rendered, Venatrix.
But I have looked at the sources, and I think they're fine.
All necessary info is there.
I plan to write something about the terrain dependency of
the choice of trees a ranger uses, their different growth rate,
chances to survive, and other tree properties, but I simply can't find the time now.
Also about the scheme the lumberjack uses for clearing the landscape.
But that would of course be for the "in depth" side of things, anyway.

Sorry for not doing anything for WL today.
With luck, tomorrow....

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

I'll give it a try after I pull the latest revisions and additions.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

It is working for me. I attach a screenshot.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

@Astuur: That’s not true, I never said, I don’t like it. I even would include it, if I knew how to.

We will see, if there’s a building where nobody can make up something for the lore section.

About the crash: That’s strange. Not even something in the stdout or stderr?

And thanks for the screenshot, Chuck. That reminds me, what changes I made in my formatting.lua and tells me that you guys should get it, too. Then the font faces will fit.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

FYI - I merged the latest trunk rev #6289 and pushed it to rev #6287 of the help_development branch. Just trying to keep in step with the rest of the Widelands world. :)

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

So, deleted all non-proofed files to make the attachment list more clearly. I even renamed the titles to add more consistency.

PS: Just had to post something to get the #100. ;-)

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Ahh… Chuck! … Two minutes… Forget my last PS… ;-)

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Sorry, elisabeth. Grabbing #100 was unintentional. At the rate we're posting, I'm sure you'll have a chance at 200. :)

[SirVer (sirver)]

>We will see, if there’s a building where nobody can make up something
>for the lore section.
I will volunteer then. I have a silly associative mind.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

@ Angelo: It’s nice, that someone had a look *into* the files. ;-) But I’m not sure, that the changes (except of the typo) are really necessary or appropriate.
The sentences in the performance section are individual and I don’t think there will be further buildings with similar ones. So there’s no need to use wildcards IMO.
And about "fish or meat": First of all did you forget to put spaces around the "or", so it’s fishormeat. ;-) And then I thought, that there’s no other material than fish and meat that will ever be seperated with "or" (if there is, please tell me) , so there’s no need to split this phrase.

So I’m for reverting the changes. What do you think?

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

@Astuur: Do you have time to make a few more buildings in the next days?

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

After thinking a bit about #105, I suppose to let the times stay as wildcards. In case that they change in the future (who knows?), we don’t have to retranslate the whole phrase just because the numbers have changed.

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@Venatrix:

I'm very very very sorry about the missing space!
The idea was to avoid translating "Fish or Meat" as a single sentence, but using the existing translation of "Fish" and "Meat".

Other than that, you're right, my idea was being able to change numbers without having to translate the same sentence again. Regarding building name, it would be easier for translators if we use wildcards, just because if you want to change the way a building is translated (it partially happened in Italian translation) you can simply change it once, without searching for every sentence where the building name is used.

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@Venatrix:
just commited new version with space between fish or meat.
we already have "%s and" (for pitta and strong beer) so I think "%s or %s" is appropriate.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

@ Venatrix #106
I certainly will try until Wednesday, but I cannot dedicate all my time to it.
So if you feel, you 'd like to do some of your own, then go ahead!

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

@Angelo: So we should change all sentences with building’s, worker’s or tool’s names to use wildcards? You forgot some (especially buildings). ;-)

I have a problem with the phrase "provided by the". We can’t use a phrase with article, where the subject is missing IMO. The problem is with the different gender the subject may have in other languages. And there already is an inconsistency in the dependencies part:
Sometimes we have "%s from the %whatever", sometimes there is this "provided by the" %whatever and when it comes to the food we don’t say where it comes from at all.

How shall we handle this?

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@Venatrix:
"So we should change all sentences with building’s, worker’s or tool’s names to use wildcards? You forgot some (especially buildings). ;-)"

Sorry, not understanding... Of course is not mandatory to use wildcards, you can simply detach the building name from other part of the sentence.

at the moment axefactory and fisher's hut still have the sentences written without "format", and also some sentences of hunter's, lumberjack's and ranger's hut.

Anyway, maybe Sirver (or someone more involved in translation than me) can give us an hint about that.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Here is another one finally.
I needed to interrupt this several times, and hope I did not produce too many mistakes with this.
The right arrows are still in here, because I think in this case they may not come automatic correctly.

The Barbarian Metalworks

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

@Angelo:
>Of course is not mandatory to use wildcards, you can simply detach the building name from other part of the sentence.

Not that simply. Mostly the building names are used with article, so we can’t just split the sentences.

Other question: Do you want to try the Metalworks Shop, Astuur provided? Then I’ll do some more of the smaller buildings. (Quarry was next on my list.)

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@Venatrix:
>Mostly the building names are used with article, so we can’t just split the sentences.

You're absolutly right about the "article problem". So simply let's define a rule and we all should follow that rule.

Maybe something like "use wildcards for numbers and wares, but not for buildings" (maybe you were just using it and my changes screwed everything...) what do you think?

ok, I'll try Metalworks.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

I honestly do feel guilty when I see how much pain such simple questions like using the definite article or not cause for you, Venatrix and Angelo.
And AFAIK there are languages that don't use it at all (like Russain). I wonder what happens there.

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@Venatrix:
tried doing metalworks (a bit in a hurry, to be honest) - I hope it is quite ok, otherwise I'll fix it asap.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Next one:
The Barbarian Limekiln

We need an additional picture supplied here.
That is a smaller version of the constructionsite while the builder is working (the other one is not recognizable as such)
There is one file already that uses the unrecognizable graphic (not sure which)
That should be exchanged with the new file. (tribes/barbarians/constructionsite/menu.png)

I will be doing the fernery next

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

@Astuur: I exchanged the unrecognisable constructionsite picture with the three buildhelp icons, but your idea is better. :-)

You did not get the files into your game by now?

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian_Limekiln_PDF_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian_Limekiln_ASCII_proofed

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

The Barbarian Fernery

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Fernery Ascii

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

@Venatrix #122
No, unfortunately not.
But I'm working on the bazaar solution secretly - with Chuck's help, him being a symbol for the virtue of patience with not so talented and badly challenged wannabe contributors :)

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@Astuur #127
I'm just paying-forward all of the patience and long-suffering others offered on MY behalf. :)

proofed Fernery PDF is attached

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian_fernery_ASCII_proofed

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

@Chuck: Can you proofread the Metalwork Shop too, please?

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Can be ingame, too. ;-)

BTW, do we have a deadline? And if so, when?

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@Venatrix #130
I just KNEW I was going to miss at least one in this forest of files. :)

I'm on it.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Metalworks_PDF_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Metalworks_ASCII_proofed

[Angelo Locritani (alocritani)]

@Venatrix - #131
according to the forum, the 15th of March (or 19th according to mailing list http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=28850647) is the day of "First Snow Feature Freeze".

According to http://wl.widelands.org/wiki/ReleasingWidelands/ , after First Snow Freeze
> "Development should not cease but continue in feature branches. No more stuff should go to trunk though"

This means that we should commit to trunk before that date, even partial work.

After some times, we will enter in the "Winter-Time feature freeze" where translations cannot be changed anymore.

Of course, after first snow feature freeze, we can continue working on branch, maybe with a slower speed.

by the way, thanks for fixing my metalwork file...

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Next one: The Barbarian Micro-Brewery

It may be all I can do today, sorry.
If anything I'd continue with the Brewery.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

And the Asccii file

[SirVer (sirver)]

>This means that we should commit to trunk before that date, even partial
>work.
I agree that we should merge this before first snow freeze - but do not
rush it. There are still some open bugs which need to be closed or
retargeted for first snow to be initiated. I will write a message on the
mailing list and a news post will likely follow tomorrow.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian_Micro-Brewery_PDF_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian_Micro-Brewery_ASCII_proofed

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Barbarian_Micro-Brewery_PDF_proofed

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

I had an idea for making the translation of the last sentence ("If all needed wares are delivered in time…") more universal. If we change the building name into "the building", we could use wildcards for the product and the time, needing only one translation for many buildings.

Shall I change it in this way?

@Astuur: Did you have a look at the files ingame by now? I would like to hear your comments. :-)

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@Venatrix #142
As long the grammar is correct, I have no problem with your suggestion.

[SirVer (sirver)]

People, we are very close to close the last bug for first snow freeze. Is your work ready to be merged or do you need more time?

https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+milestone/build17-rc1

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

I must confess that I don’t like the idea of merging something only half finished. There are some inconsistencies and missing facts/texts, that I would like to see commented.

So, my opinion: I’m for not merging now but rather make a really cool help for build18. ;-)

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Oah.... what a pitty.
I thought the idea was to show to a broader user base what we are about to do and receive some comments
and suggestions for improvements, no?
It was clear from the beginning that we would not be able to finish all houses for all tribes.
And even if we were able, we'd probably want to use some more formatting with the next release.
We will certain have to work on, but a little feedback from the outside should help with the content
and looks.
So I would prefer to see it in even if it isn't comprehensive.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

If I may add my opinion, I think Astuur's argument has merit. The in-game help feature is a large "bite to chew" for one swallow. As we are doing with seafaring, I think it is a good idea to introduce the feature in its incomplete pre-alpha state to get feedback from the larger community.
I feel that, if we advertise to the public the approach that we are taking with the help system and seafaring features, we should be able to manage their expectations and solicit their involvement in the development of both features.

+1 for including what we can reasonably accomplish as long as we present it/them as a work in progress.

[SirVer (sirver)]

I fully agree with chuck and Astuur: done is better than perfect, our builds are labeled as Alpha software AND we might draw in new contributors for the help if people see that stuff is missing. We will also get feedback which might change some of our approaches.

Nevertheless, we do not want to merge when something is known to be broken in the the branch or some work is in progress that will be committed soonish. The first snow feature freeze will start with merging this feature though, so I really want to have it in trunk before next week if this is possible at all.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

I would suggest that, to assist people's understanding that the in-game help feature is incomplete and under active development, we might plug some such comment parenthetically at the beginning of each pop-up. Of course, that is only if that would be a simple modification to the code and one we could implement and remove relatively easily.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Alternatively to #149, we might present a default "under construction" pop-up for those items that are not yet documented.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Right, convinced.

@Astuur: Can you have a look into the buildings you didn’t provide (primarily the farm)? I would like to complete the buildings we have.

It should be no problem to make both #149 and #150 work. I’ll work on it tonight (means after writing this comment ;-) ).

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Pushed in rev6308.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Thanks, Venatrix. I'll try it out as soon as I can. (May not be until tomorrow, though.) :)

[SirVer (sirver)]

I am not too fond of #149 but this is your decision to make - after all you are the help-development team :P. My reason is: everything in widelands is alpha and under development and not finished - why bother telling so for what we already have?

However: is it possible to get this mergable till monday? I would like to make the first snow freeze on monday. First snow means no more translatable string changes - that is it would be the version shipped with build 17.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

I like the "under construction pop-ups for the buildings currently without help documentation, but I have to admit that after seeing it in the game, I share SirVer's opinion of #149.

Can you keep the verbage for the under-construction screens and eliminate it from the complete one?

Sorry to flip-flop on my own suggestion.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Nice job on the layouts, by the way.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Hello Venatrix, I have copied the help.lua files over
and looked at your work. All very fine.
Thank you for your bravery.
I wished I could have done more,
but even now I cannot come up with
any of the lore parts missing right away.
I've seen the necessary changes you made, and I think we can
come out with this, without any need to alert
to the fact that it is not complete.
That is to say, I support Sirver's and Chuck's
idea to eliminate the orange part from the
houses that are basically done.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

It’s no problem to eliminate it.

I just wonder, why only from the houses that are complete? Don’t you think the "under construction" text is enough?

BTW: Shall I make "under construction" notes for the other tribes too or do we leave them alone at the moment?

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Oh, and comments like "text needed" and "source needed" don’t need to be translatable, do they?

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@Venatrix #158

As far as I am concerned, the orange text can be removed entirely. IMHO, I think the "under construction" graphics and text say all that is needed.

As for the other tribes, I think that if the "?" button appears in the building's window, there should be some kind of response when it is clicked. So, +1 for adding the "under construction" for EVERY incomplete building regardless of tribe.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@ #159

It would certainly be a courtesy to non-English speakers, but I think the graphic gets the point across. Either way is fine with me. (Then again, English is my native tongue.) ;)

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

@Chuck #160

Then I’ll eliminate the orange text out of the other files, too.

The "?" button only appears if there exists a help file in the building’s directory. So there is no really need to make that window. That’s why I asked. ;-)

And for #161

I meant the buildings with missing lore sections (there are three at the moment: farm, cattle farm, bakery). There just are notes saying "text needed" and "source needed" (and performance: "calculation needed" in case of the farm). I made them untranslatable for marking the interim state, as long as nobody has an idea what to write there till tomorrow. ;-) Everything else is translatable.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@Venatrix #162

Great! No button - no place-holder needed.

Regarding the translatable/not tranlsatable question, I bow to your and other's opinions on the matter. :)

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Fine with me

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@Venatrix
I just noticed that the Coal Mine displays the IronOre graphic in the "Purpose" section instead of the coal graphic used through the rest of the pop-up.

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

Thanks - corrected.

[SirVer (sirver)]

I am planing to set first snow ff this evening, roughly 10 hours from now. Speak now or life with the consequences :)

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

I would have liked to increase the consistency between the buildings a bit more, but unfortunatly I don’t have that much time I thought I would have to do so.

I was convinced to make the "… needed" strings translatable again, but this will be my last commit before feature freeze unless somebody discovers more serious mistakes.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@Venatrix #168
"I was convinced to make the "… needed" strings translatable again, but this will be my last commit before feature freeze unless somebody discovers more serious mistakes."

Having heard no reports of mistakes over the last 4 hours, I will take the steps to merge ~widelands-dev/widelands/help_development rev #6312 into the trunk.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Changes pushed to trunk in bzr rev#6326

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@SirVer
What sort of status should be assigned to this bug report now? "Fix Commited" even though the content is incomplete?

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

I guess I answered my own question. :) This bug was to introduce the feature. That has been done. We should probably create a new bug report to complete the In-Game Help content. Don't you think?

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

BTW - Congratulations Widelands Help Team! This has been an excellent start made even nicer by its inclusion in Build 17!

[SirVer (sirver)]

I agree fully with chuck!

answer to 171: You can also retarget to build 18. But maybe having more different bug reports (maybe for the various tribes or even finer cut slices) makes the whole process a little easier to follow and a clearer picture of the work that still is to do. I leave this decision the help development team.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Re: #174
What do you think, team? I have submitted bug report#969605 to pick up where we have left off in Build17.
Would dividing the effort into separate bug reports by tribe or some other criteria be helpful to get things organized into manageable sub projects?

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

We will have an ongoing need for participation in the course of completing this help.
For one thing there are the continued efforts to improve the formatting.
I think we will get Sirver's help on that (maybe others', too) after release 17.
So I think a bug report "Improve help formatting" would be good to have

For another, the lore section will require to draw a clearer picture of the tribes' underlying culture.
Many details concerning this exist only in the heads of the founders or those that conceptually have
envisioned the tribes for a long time, but we need to reference those especially on the "in depth" side.
In order not to create discrepancies and to inlcude the ideas of guys like Sirver and Nasenbaer (and ...?)
we must remain in close contact and exchange.

Splitting this into three (for each tribe) bug reports may help.
I plan to keep on making pdfs for each building.
They seem to transport all aspects well, and allow easy correction and commenting for
formatting, content, linguistic and orthographic proofing, and graphical additions.
They should be easy to quick check for conceptual consistancy, too.
But it's hard at this point to predict how things will evolve.

So, to sum it up:
I suggest 4 reports

1) improve lua formatting options
2) Imperial in-game help development
3) Atlantean in-game help development
4) Barbarian in-game help development

Any good?

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@Astuur #176

The four reports you suggest sound reasonable to me.
I will reword bug report#969605 to focus on the barbarian tribe segment which is already started. I will also initiate reports for the other two tribes.

Astuur, as you are more in touch with the lua formatting aspect than I, would you see to initiating that bug report please?

If anyone else has a better approach, let us hear it. For now anyway, I think this gets the major thrusts partitioned into their own reports.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

ERRATUM: The new bug report is bug #959605, not 969605 as stated above (twice). :P

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

Me? .... in touch? with .lua?
You must be joking, Chuck :)
Venatrix, please help...

[Venatrix (elisabeth)]

@Astuur: I think Chuck meant that you are the guy who has the ideas what would be cool to have as formatting possiblities.

But I think that the name shouldn’t be "improve lua formatting options" but something like "improve the rich text renderer", for that’s what isn’t capable of the things we would like, if I understood right.

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

@Venatrix #180
Thank you, Venatrix. That is EXACTLY what I meant. :)

You, Astuur and Angelo are far more familiar than I with the formatting limitations that we are currently facing.

[Astuur (wolfsteinmetz)]

I have done that, as far as I could without knowing much about the problems that
Venatrix had to face in creating the .luas
Please add your thoughts and the problems you were experiencing!
It is bug #965044

[Chuck Wilder (chuckw20)]

Thanks, Astuur!

[SirVer (sirver)]

Released in build17-rc1.