Dodge windows is down but what about making the launcher autohide only on maximised apps ?

[Fabien Lusseau]

I was using dodge windows in unity mainly because it make the launcher go out of the way on maximized apps (like Kdenlive who is benefiting a lot from unity's capability of making the most space usable).

But I was never hiding the launcher when I use "windowed" apps (like firefox on the left and openoffice on the righ part of the screen) because it helped me a lot switching with something else rapidly (like thunderbird, pidgin, etc)

What I think to be a good third behavior of the launcher is to hide itself when one app or more are fullscreen and if they are not, being always there.

There is some corner cases like if one app is full screen and the focused app is not. But I think this will not bring some crazy bugs like dodging windows did in the past.

[Ego (egogratis)]

When users lands on Unity "home page" the first thing he/she reads is:

Unity: A desktop experience designed for efficiency of space and interaction.

https://launchpad.net/unity

Allow mechanism to hide Unity Launcher when at least one Windows is maximized and in all other situations act like never hide mode does or remove the part "for efficiency of space"!

[zzecool (zzecool)]

I agree

If you use the launcher as "never hide" then there are numerous problems

1 : The space , we are losing valuable space on the desktop that is a must especially on laptops and net-books or looking at future on tablets.

The mention of " Unity: A desktop experience designed for efficiency of space and interaction." also comes in conflict with never hide too.

2 : Other than space , it can result on many "accidents" , while working on a maximized application i found my self pressing application buttons on the launcher by mistake that result on ruin my workflow and have various applications pop up "from nowhere" ( most of the times i didnt noticed that i had pressed any button )

3 : Its very distracting ! When i have my application maximized i dont want to be distracted by the beautiful colorfull Launcher icons because if i wanted too i wouldn't have my application maximized .

Professional applications take that in mind very Seriously that's why many times we see that applications like Aftershot , many video editing software , etc give you the choice to pick a very dark UI them so you can work without any distraction. Like you are in a Dark Room !

On the other hand if you choose to have the launcher on "autohide" when you have a maximized application everythng is fine as it should.

But ! When you dont have any application running or you decide to run something unmaximized on purpose then you are losing Everything about what unity suppose to be the launcher and his feedback.

Every day we see more and more application to adapt on the unity design and develop their application with that in mind . Having the Launcher icon to give you various feedback information about what is happening with the application like

Progress of the file transfer
Updates available
Mails waiting to be read
And a ton more other..

All this nice features interaction and feedback goes away when using launcher "autohide"

The launcher must be clever and be there when you need it , but leaves you the precious space when you need to work with desktop in his full potential.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

Sorry for the typos , but there is no edit button to fix em .

[Christopher Kyle Horton (christhehorton)]

If I remember correctly, one of the main reasons intellihide was removed was that users were confused when an application was maximized and they couldn't find the launcher again. I see no way this will be re-implemented unless the launcher gained some way to hint to users how to reveal it when it is hidden (like a tab pointing to the side of the screen), and I'm afraid it would add visual clutter.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

Leaving the "never hide" as the default behavior will not gonna confuse any user .

In the same way of thinking "autohide" is even worst because you start on a desktop with no launcher at all , if not by mistake the novice user will not be able to find the launcher. All the other reasons its on my first comment above.

A proper test is if you test the Desktop with some "new comers " that didn't knew anything about Unity and if they found "intelihide" confusing , then you have to be sure that this users will keep using Unity and test em again after some days - months.

Im afraid that the statement "confused the users" and will result in "visual clutter" sound like an excuse where i cant see how "Autohide" is better than "Intelihide" . Even the name makes it better and point the intelligent characteristic of the feature.

[Christopher Kyle Horton (christhehorton)]

@zzecool There's testing that was done which shows empirically that intellihide confused users who were new to Ubuntu. You can read more on that and the decision to remove it here: https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg07665.html

We can't be sure that users will get used to something which will likely confuse them off the bat, because if it's not obvious right away, they might be inclined to give up on it and go back to whatever OS they were using before. We certainly don't want that, and we can't force users to try to figure out their interface. Not everyone is skilled enough with computers or patient enough for that. That's why the default is always visible, so they always know where it is.

The reason autohide can stay is because it is considered an advanced feature. If they are so inclined, they can find the autohide option in System Settings, where the options even describe how to reveal the launcher and give additional settings. By this point, the user should be sufficiently informed as to what's going on when they let the launcher hide, so they're not left wondering where it went. And if they find it gives them issues, they can always reach System Settings from the power cog and reset to the always visible default.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

@Christopher My first comment still waiting for answers and pointing me on the mail list that i have allrdy ridden doesn't give me any.

Im all with you ! I also want to see more and more ppl join ubuntu . If you open your ubuntu desktop seat back relax take a look of the UI what you get?

What im getting is a top panel looks exactly like if i was in OSx and i can also see the Windows 7 taskbar moved from bottom to the left. Even though im not a new user on ubuntu i was a new user on unity like all of us and i think its more than enough to not alienate the user.

I feel like if a new user press by mistake the ALT key will be much more alienate by HUD than anything (I like Hud too , its an example based "in the way you are thinking" )

Your last paragraph still don't give me an answer about "" how "Autohide" is better than "Intelihide ""

[papukaija (papukaija)]

"the main reasons intellihide was removed was that users were confused when an application was maximized and they couldn't find the launcher again. "

And moving the window control buttons for maximimised windows to the global menu does not confuse anyone?

[Christopher Kyle Horton (christhehorton)]

@zzecool Autohide has to be explicitly opted into, and it has more consistent behavior than intellihide. I guess part of what might be confusing people may also be the nature of intellihide that sometimes your launcher is visible, and sometimes it isn't. At any rate, it's never explained to the user beforehand how it works. If its behavior were described and offered as an advanced option, that might make it more palatable to new users, though I'd be guessing the user testing must have revealed something else wrong with it if Canonical decided to remove it completely. At any rate, it definitely should not be the default.

As for Unity's similarities to other OSes, I'm pretty sure the Mac OS X dock and Windows 7 taskbar neither support intellihide. The former was always visible on every public Mac I've used (disclaimer: never owned a Mac myself), and the Windows 7 taskbar is similar to the options Unity now gives for its launcher in that it's either always visible or reveals itself when the user mouses the side of the screen it is on. People can expect these behaviors because they have seen them in the operating systems they have previously used, but intellihide might be an alien concept to them.

Looking back over your first comment (#2), I see you mention issues with screen space and seeing the information present on launcher icons with autohide set. The first one is easy enough to address: the Appearance settings give a slider to adjust the icon size, which can be brought all the way down to 32px if so inclined. For the second one, the launcher can still be revealed by mouseover if the user wants to see what their current status is on the progress bars for their various apps. I agree that it doesn't do a sufficient job of asking for user attention when an icon starts glowing while the launcher is hidden, but that has already been reported as bug #770092.

With regards to your HUD comment and papukaija's question about moving the window buttons to the menu bar for maximized windows, the best I can say is that if they haven't been removed yet, they must not have been shown to be confusing to users in testing. I'm a college undergraduate, not a Canonical employee, so I only know of what has been discussed in blog posts and announcements.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

Im not asking about make intelihide the default , so all the statements about user testing are irrelevant . I also want a pleasing welcome for every new comer

Im asking about intelihide instead of autohide or keep them both for reasons that i allrdy described above.

PS: im in 32px launcher since unity's Day 0 .

[Ego (egogratis)]

If the users are so confused about Dodge Windows alike functionality why do we the users want it so bad? Usually the users that complain the most about Ubuntu are doing it because they will not use Ubuntu and they need excuse and they will still find it.

I do agree you can't find feature like this on other OS-es. That is why Unity Shell is better? Shouldn't it be? I don't see nothing wrong with that?

How many user usually use "Windows OS + autohide"? Probably less users then the number of Ubuntu users that would like to use Dodge alike functionality in the future too?

I don't believe option in system settings that would say "Hide Unity Launcher when at least one windows is maximized" would confuse users because it would do exactly what it is supposed to do. Just like "Always Hide" or "Never Hide" does. All three are easy to understand and are consistent? At least implement something simplified and similar to this mode and leave the setting out of system settings. We will find it!

[Christopher Kyle Horton (christhehorton)]

@Ego With regard to your first sentence, keep in mind that there's a big difference between the two kinds of users you mention. The users getting confused about window dodging are the new users who have never even heard of Ubuntu before, and have probably been using Windows or Mac (or both) exclusively up to now; the users who want window dodging back are us experienced users who already have used Ubuntu and/or other Linux distros, and we know better what it is.

That being said, I do agree that it'd be nice if an option was made to enable window dodging (either the old kind or the new one this report is for) that also explained what it was before users turned it on.

At this point, I think we need to wait to hear what the devs have to say. This report is maybe getting a bit too chatty.

[aquahawk (shane71717)]

I think dodge should stay for the fact if you have firefox open for instance, unity launcher overlaps the backbutton makeing firefox unusable without having to move firefox by hand to the right ,you could solve this by making unity launcher always below
but then unity launcher isnt accessable because its under other windows . Its inconsistant and confusing because
say you use the snap function unity launcher wont overlap the launcher ,but when you move firefox to the left
unless you snap it its under the launcher.

Another option would be so when the launcher is visible it takes up the space so that is the edge of the screen now
is the edge of the launcher

 I have two use cases that moved over to ubuntu because of this feature

(1) A 75 year old man . (just learned how to use google!!!!!)
(2) A 35 year old female.(just checks email does a bit of office work)

So not power users.

They both didn't find it confusing ,but now they are dissapointed its gone , and unless i patch it back in there moving back
to windows . Because this is what windows didnt have, all the wobbly windows and the compiz flashyness didnt impress them but this did, Hud now thats confusing but having said that there in a learning curve for anything, But if you use the same users who cant understand dodge as the use case ,Then good bye hud because those same use cases im talking about dont get how to use hud. But they understood dodge.

So please leave it as a disabled option , or could someone submit a patch to put it back in and i can put it back in.
I know how to apply a patch.

The users im talking about are my father and sister,and they are nice people not complainers ,its more dissapointed than anything.

[Ego (egogratis)]

Maybe just one more thought about new users.

-We all were new users of Unity Shell not so long back in time.
-Just like Always hide this third option would not have to be default.

And yes "winning over" users from other OS-es should be made in a way they fill comfortable and not confused but on the other hand you have to offer them something they don't already have and Dodge Windows is something they don't have right now and we Ubuntu users do/did have.

And yes i do agree basically everything important was said!

[zzecool (zzecool)]

One palliative solution could also be to give the user the ability to choose different behavior of the launcher per workspace or per output.

So in workspace 1 i can have the launcher in "never hide" for internet , mail , twitting , chit chat etc
and for workspace 2 to have the launcher in "autohide" so i can use my screen to its full potential.

[Octavian Damiean (mainerror)]

Removing Intellihide completely is a step backwards. It was one of the features that set Ubuntu apart from all the other operating systems. It was innovative.

I'd like to highlight a problem with a fixed launcher. More and more websites are being designed using responsive web design techniques. In short it means that websites adjust their information representation based on a couple of factors like screen width, height and more.

Viewing a website like http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ on a laptop with a resolution of 1024x768 with the launcher set to always display will result in that page to believe you are a tablet computer and change its information representation accordingly. Some website features won't be available. That website is only one example.

Now "that" is a problem!

It is no problem that the usability tests revealed that Intellihide is confusing - regardless of how illogical that might be - it doesn't mean that it should be completely removed. Ubuntu has taken a lot of flak for ignoring its power users. I'm not sure why you think that removing a such an important feature would help with that problem.

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't make any sense at all to remove the features completely from Ubuntu. Keep it as an optional launcher behavior setting, hide it and make it available only from the gconf-editor if you want but DON't remove it. It just makes no sense.

[Brendan William (bwilliam)]

Really stupid decision Canonical. Your basically going back to the unity in maverick (probably the dumbest version invented).

[Brendan William (bwilliam)]

Just because you get multi monitor support dosen't mean netbooks/laptops have two monitors.

[Christopher Kyle Horton (christhehorton)]

@Brendan Please refrain from posting comments that are not useful for resolving this bug.

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

While dodging the launcher by non-maximized windows might be considered gimmicky (it's definitely cool but probably not that useful), intellihide, as it's called in several Linux docks/launchers, is far from a gimmick. It's a real productivity boon, a space saving and very clever feature.

New users don't apply for anything that's not default. If dodge/intellihide is confusing for new users, making it optional instead of default is the the logical decision. "Difficult for new users -> has to be removed", is not logical at all.

Even for newcomers, a slow animation showing the launcher hiding or coming back would have explained very well what's going on. This is very visible when dodging the launcher with a non-maximized window. Making it visible when maximizing a window was the design team task, not removing the feature altogether. (Power users could be given the option to change the hiding/unhiding speed in CCSM.)

Other OSs not having this feature isn't a reason either. We choose Ubuntu BECAUSE it provides features other OSs don't. The best reason for not hiding the launcher is the same for not hiding the global menu: you need to see them in order to aim BEFORE you get there. Since this has been finally understood by the design team regarding global menus (according to MS words on its post about the HUD), it should be obvious that autohiding is not a good solution, while intellihide is.

It's understandable that keeping options makes the code harder to maintain, but that can't be a serious reason either. Maybe the dodge function is too complex? Intellihide is just a switch: show launcher if no window is maximized. That isn't complex by any stretch of the imagination and can't be hard to maintain. Ubuntu is full of much more complex (and eventually buggy) pieces of code no one is thinking of removing just because of that.

So I expect the design team reconsiders this decision, cleans up the code to make this a simpler function (intellihide instead of dodge) or simply keep the option as non-default ("always show" would be the default). I thing that's a balanced response to the user testing. The "just remove it" response is not only harsh and harming to many, it also fails to follow a logical thinking path.

[[e-mail] (jdperea)]

Please! return de Dodge windows!

[Adrian Wechner (adrian-wechner)]

personally, i have no problem with default behaviours change. thats canonicals decision. but starting from a "default" feature and ending in "feature removed" is too hard. you can't hard-remove a feature which has been THE DEFAULT since a year. i you want change the default config, but let the possibility that people who want can change the config to the old default. thx

[them par (thmanoy)]

"Never Hide" wastes too much space,
"Always Hide" is very annoying when you log in and there is no launcher,
"Hide only when an app is focused and maximized" or "Hide only when at least an app is maximized" are the best options.
However, "Never Hide" should be the default behaviour for newcomers to Ubuntu so as not to get confused.

[Matija Polajnar (matija-polajnar)]

Decisions like this made me leave Ubuntu with Unity for Xubuntu. I mean, what's the point in using a CPU and GPU-intensive shell when it does a way worse job than Xfce + Gnome-do?

I understand that overabundance of features clutters GUIs and complicates maintenance. However, this feature already has a GUI element (for switching between 'always show' and 'autohide'), and I don't think this feature complicates code more than it gives advantage to us, advanced users.

I mean, you can target your OS for average Joes, but they won't install it by themselves anyway; we, advanced users, will do it for them and we won't unless we use (and therefore know) the system ...

[Bertrandel (mezcalbert)]

Worst, attracting new users is a good thing but if you keep disappointing intermediate and advanced users with many hazardous decisions and thus make them flee, the amount of users remains the same at the end of the day, that's not even a logical business decision. Attract AND keeps requires more balance in the choices.

As for arguments for this essential bug to be resolved:

- Dodging or Intellihide or whatever you call it is just the smart behaviour, for many reasons: 1. The launcher gets out of the way when you don't want to have it (e.g. maximizing a window, or snapping 2 windows vertically); 2. but still is there when you want it; 3. You don't have to make that annoying (and slightly time-consuming) gesture to the edge of the screen to get the launcher when that's not useful to do it (no window maximized), and that's a major complaint I have against Gnome Shell as well; 4. The icons in the visible launcher allow you to see at all time which applications have a running instance and even the number of instances for the specific application, and this overview is needed (another complaint against GS as well, where you must trigger the dash with a large and annoying gesture, especially on touchpads, to get such a basic overview); 5. As mentioned by zzecool, many dynamic features over the icon appeared and what's the point if you can't see them most of the time?
Regarding productivity and Unity's possibilities, that's an absolute need.

- So, for the very same reasons "Auto-hide" is the least natural (not to say the most stupid) behaviour. And not mentioning the issues of the launcher spreading over buttons, content, and such. Very unconfortable. That would be the one to remove if wanting to save resources.

- Then, you have "Never hide", which wastes a lot of space, but above all completely distorts the Ambiance/Radiance theme, making it dreadfully inconsistent with maximized windows (not to say ugly, but that's more of a personal opinion). It may be good as default not to confuse newcomers, but on the other hand, the theme inconsistency will push them away. Balance, here we come again...

The excuse of removing it for not having to maintain it is not valid, since Canonical is spending many resources on groping around in a lot of directions way more resource-consuming (and sometimes pointless, such as HUD, considering it's a LTS release).

I've always supported or found my way around the orientation taken in Ubuntu, but removing this would be the dead end for me, the one blocking obstacle making me switch, because of it's very negative impact on my workflow, even if it may seem insignificant. So please do something about this decision.

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

"I've always supported or found my way around the orientation taken in Ubuntu, but removing this would be the dead end for me, the one blocking obstacle making me switch, because of it's very negative impact on my workflow, even if it may seem insignificant. So please do something about this decision."

I don't mean to threaten Ubuntu as I'm sure Bertrandel doesn't mean either, but I'd like to add a consideration. Maybe this won't stop me from using Ubuntu (although now that it'll behave exactly the same as OS X in this regard, I might actually boot into OS X more often and gradually leave Ubuntu), but the most worrying thing for me is that it shows a line of thought that definitely would make me leave. As Bertrandel said: you might gain new users by dumbing down the OS, but it will be at the cost of losing more seasoned users. Don't forget that users are new for just a few months. Probably when the next release arrives, the new user isn't new anymore. If you keep changing Ubuntu's behavior at every release, you'll lose users at a rate that might be even higher than the adoption rate.

That's not clever.

[shane (shane-animail)]

It just seems natural to me that if the desktop is empty, then you may well be wanting to launch an app or do some work of some kind so it makes perfect sense for the launcher to be there, ready and waiting.
Then when you have launched your app, it moves out of the way so you can fully concentrate and maximize the screen space.

The autohide behaviour at the moment seems pretty iffy and unpredictable. I find the launcher takes more effort to show than it should when I WANT it to show, yet when I overshoot the back button in chromium and nudge the edge of the screen, the launcher shows instantly.

[Corey Kearney (snkiz-deactivatedaccount)]

@shane don't tell'em autohide is glitchy. Canonical is lible to rip that out to.

[João Guilherme Moraes Amendola (mx-joaoo)]

It was the best mode to use unity, it's the reason for my install, sadly it isnt available for now.

I hope the devs make a clever decision and re-implement this function for unity.

[Zies McDoom (jasonflindt)]

If the launcher auto hide all the time why have it , i think it might aswell be relocated to the top bar , Since it auto hides how does a noob find it ?. The dash is now a nightmare , to many clicks to do any thing . It supossed to be noob Friendly {My sister cant use it } . The Lens,s have no names {Not Noob Friendly} , the scopes are not open in the home lens . The right click on the ubuntu button would be better as the home lens with Home folder then apps We dont need resent apps becouse if they were used regularly we would just dock them in the launcher. The lens icons would be better represented like the scopes.

[Shannon Black (shannon-netforge)]

I get the choice to remove dodge windows for bug reasons during an LTS .. But seriously it was one of the best features in oneiric and natty. Please make a grand return in 12.04.1 or 12.10 when bugs can be clearly sorted ..

[Corey Kearney (snkiz-deactivatedaccount)]

Well the remove of the doge has caused at least ten or fifteen more "critical" bugs to appear, its pretty clear the whole hide code is a mess. Something drastic is going to have to happen in the next 25 days. Or else 12.04 will need to be pushed back, they'll have to revert the change, or simply put out another buggy as hell release. But its ok, this one's LTS won't happen right?

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

@Shannon, we have all-new best features in 12.04 ;)

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

"we have all-new best features in 12.04 ;)"

I can't believe this is all you have to say here.

[jsevi83 (jsevi83)]

I understand they prefer to change the default behaviour to always visible, but why removing the option dodge-windows? That was the previous default behaviour and most users are used to that. I don't think taking away users choice is the right way to do things...

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

The rest has already been said, and now it remains only to tease those
who haven't read it ;)

[Corey Kearney (snkiz-deactivatedaccount)]

wow mark that's uncalled for I just lost a lot of respect for you

[them par (thmanoy)]

What is the real reason for removing dodge-windows feature (removing, not just making it non-default)? I don't think it was buggy. I use Oneiric since November (two months after discovering linux). I liked this feature. I use a laptop and I need the space. Auto-hide is not good because when you log in or you don't have any windows open you need the launcher to launch an application. It is very annoying to log in and to see no launcher. I think I will stay with Oneiric forever... Ok, I won't, but I have no idea how I will become used to auto-hide.

[Ego (egogratis)]

Please listen to users. We would not persist so much if we would not believe in this.

I agree completely Ubuntu 12.04 has all-new best features and everybody should upgrade to it on release date. Compiz and Unity and Unity Greeter all are better then before, bluetooth will work and it did not in Ubuntu 11.10 it will be LTS release supported for long long time it will do power management much better, mutli-monitor too it will be something it was meant to be when Unity was introduced and much much more.

But i just can't agree and find it is a huge step back:

-Removing dodge launcher mode (alike)
-Changing Compiz scale behavior in a way you have to think where on other workspaces opened windows exist.

[icb410 (ian-berke)]

I 100% agree... I can't stand the new algorithm for the auto-hide since it relies on moving the mouse past the edge to activate. I have tried turning up the sensitivity, but still have to hit the side more than once! I want my dodge windows/intellihide back!

So far every other part of the new unity at 12.04 experience I love. Please fix this!

[bowser (bwbernard-wong1)]

Please reconsider Mark. The people who post here are not Unity haters, but some of its most enthusiastic users, or they wouldn't even care, just switch to classic fall back or gnome shell and that would be it. We are not asking for new feature, just that please don't remove an already existing feature which has worked very well for many of us, and has been advertised as one of the cool features unique to Unity. Some of the people who will miss it are definitely "new users", so why us that our voices carry no weight for you? Thanks.

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

"The rest has already been said, and now it remains only to tease those
who haven't read it ;)"

I'm not quite sure you know what a wink emoticon is for...

Bowser is right: 80+ people have come here to ask for something very reasonable because we do care about Unity, and you think there's something to joke about?

Yes we have all read what people affected by this bug have to say. We haven't read what the decision makers -that includes YOU- have to say. Are you listening and reasoning or not?

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

On 02/03/12 23:25, Aleve Sicofante wrote:
> Bowser is right: 80+ people have come here to ask for something very
> reasonable because we do care about Unity, and you think there's
> something to joke about?
>
> Yes we have all read what people affected by this bug have to say. We
> haven't read what the decision makers -that includes YOU- have to say.
> Are you listening and reasoning or not?

Yes, I'm listening and reasoning. This has been debated extensively on
the unity-design list. You can find the rationale from me there. I take
Ubuntu and Unity very seriously, I devote my life to them. Decisions are
not taken lightly, but even decisions that are carefully taken will have
folk who disagree. It is not possible to please everybody all the time,
even those who are generally supportive of what we're doing, or
contributors, will disagree with some bits.

The issue has been settled, and if you care enough about it, you'll find
the rationale and be satisfied that at least it was considered and
experimented with and decided against. This was one of my favourite
features too, but I believe taking it out makes the whole better.

I will never convince all of you. So I'm just going to tease those of
you who want to start this discussion again from step 1.0.

[Sneckster (snecklift)]

So having it as an option wouldn't keep everyone happy? To me you are indeed sounding more like a priest than a scientist in this thread.

My children and partner are 'users' and they never once had a problem with the launcher Dodging out of the way, but they do have a problem with it always being there and getting on top of everything. I don't really want the kids opening the Home folder when what they wanted to do was hit back on the browser.

Obviously this is just one instance which you will obviously ignore as actual user experience in the real world doesn't sound too important.

I've been a big fan of Unity and as a fairly new user find it very user friendly but this decision is making me look at other distros again.

from a user

[zzecool (zzecool)]

Im 100% sure that whoever commented here has allrdy search on the unity mail list out of curiosity only to see as an excuse about the removal , that dodge function alienate the new comers on the tests. ( I can come to a very long scientific post about why this test isn't not the proper , but i think you allrdy know that )

And the decision was not only to remove this function form the default position , not only to remove it form ccsm but remove it from the code....

I believe all this is just a lie and this is my opinion , it is a lie that you didnt want to support this function because of some bugs that bothering the devolopers when actually the window is dodging the launcher ( i didnt ever found any bug though ). I think you didnt want this just for the LTS .

If this isnt a lie then please can someone explain to as why autohide is better in any way than dodge ?? There is not even 1 reason because dodge or intellihide is the evolution of autohide.

But instead of keep dodge you decide to keep autohide , a feature that almost noone is using in windows osx or even linux..

Please treat your users with some respect and dont under estimate their iq. I hope that you will reconsider.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

Here we are only ppl who actually bug hunting on precise . The real reaction will come when precise will actually land in final , so the users will realized what happened with dodge a feature that was the default and got loved by almost everyone.

Not to mention the great number of bugs that will come based on this. ( space , resolution , place of the windows button, accidentally pressing of the buttons on a "horizontal UI because the launcher is on the left and the user can move his wrist left and right with easy comparing to up and down movement .Thats the main reason because the other OS have horizontal launchers , because you can navigate fast within the launcher (left - right) instead of up and down )

[zzecool (zzecool)]

This is from the Nautilus 1:3.3.90.0ubuntu5 change log :

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  * debian/patches/02_additional_marge_for_unity.patch:
    - dropped, it's not required with the current launcher hidding
      behaviour (it was to deal with intellihide) and create margin issues
      (lp: #936958)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I continue to believe that the story about the new comers + the dodge it is just a story to hide that devs couldn't or didn't want to refine dodge. ( And here is where Mark's comment on the mail list come into play " I aint design a bitch" ) .

There must be more serious problems than this with nautilus that made them to take this decision , that sounds logical in contradiction with the story about the test ..

[Zies McDoom (jasonflindt)]

Most end users will not report their discontent untill it is to late. why ? Most end user are not testers .

[Sam_ (and-sam)]

Well, it doesn't autohide when it should. bug 908861

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

"Yes, I'm listening and reasoning. This has been debated extensively on the unity-design list. You can find the rationale from me there."
Still, your rationale can't answer the very logical and simple reasons given here.

"even decisions that are carefully taken will have folk who disagree."
"Folk" here isn't just disagreeing or posting "opinions". We have posted very solid reasons. You haven't replied to them whatsoever.

"It is not possible to please everybody all the time,"
It's so easy to please everybody in this case it's not even funny explaining it again (hint: your default, our option).

"even those who are generally supportive of what we're doing, or contributors, will disagree with some bits."
Again: this is not disagreement. It's not "I like it this way and you like it another". You simply can't point to a single reason why intellihide can't be an option. The very fact we're here asking for some logic should give you a hint about our "supportiveness".

"The issue has been settled"
I see. Just to be sure: Is this like when you decided to move the window buttons to the left without giving any reasons to your perplexed users?

", and if you care enough about it, you'll find the rationale and be satisfied that at least it was considered and experimented with and decided against. "
I care enough to come here and support this bug. I'm still waiting for your listening and reasoning. In no way an option for intellihide has been considered and experimented with. A more complicated version -dodge- was there by default and all you have concluded is that it shouldn't be like that. At the risk of repeating myself: no reason why it can't live in the Unity options is being given.

"This was one of my favourite features too, but I believe taking it out makes the whole better."
Not to sound offensive but it couldn't be less relevant what you "believe". It's about having solid reasons, not beliefs. Still no reasoning, I'm afraid.

"I will never convince all of you."
Not if you come here just to tease your users, no. If, instead, you are able to explain why not having an option for intellihide, you might actually convince us. Hard -because it defeats logic- but not impossible. So far, however, we haven't seen our reasons replied properly by you or any representative of the design team. I understand it's very hard to argue why a simple option isn't being given to the users. The point is you can't come with ONE SINGLE REASON why not having a simple switch for intellihide "makes the whole better".

"So I'm just going to tease those of you who want to start this discussion again from step 1.0."
Have fun. Lack of respect for your users is the sure way to reach 200 million of them... Good luck.

[jsevi83 (jsevi83)]

They explained why they are changing the default behaviour, but they don't want to explain why they are removing the dodge windows option. I guess it's because it's easier for them to remove it, less work and more time to finish Precise before the deadline, even if that means not caring at all for their users. I hope for the day that a Unity fork will be born.

[Ego (egogratis)]

"I take Ubuntu and Unity very seriously, I devote my life to them."

Thank you.

"This was one of my favourite features too, but I believe taking it out makes the whole better."

Yes, it was one of my favorite features too and removing it in my opinion does not make the whole better.

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

On 05/03/12 00:55, Jorge wrote:
> They explained why they are changing the default behaviour, but they
> don't want to explain why they are removing the dodge windows option.

I have explained at length, many many times, why we want to limit the
number of options. All options have an impact on the rest of the code.
Asking for any option seems to you to be reasonable, because "it has no
cost", but it *does* have a cost, and until you understand that you are
not a reasonable counterpart in a conversation. You'll keep thinking I'm
an alien cannibal, and I'll keep thinking you are unable to understand
the consequences of decisions and requests.

You can help us build something amazing, but to do so you will need to
show spine, guts and discipline. Right now, all you're showing is the
ability to make demands repeatedly.

Mark

[bowser (bwbernard-wong1)]

Mark,

We understand that there is a cost to every option, that is not the issue. The issue is whether it is a good trade off, I am sure you understand that too, otherwise why not just remove all options and then end of story? I think the disagreement is whether including the dodge is a good trade off, many of us think it is because this is a very nice feature that makes Unity look and feel really sophisticated. Moreover, it is not a new feature request, it is something that has been working very well since Natty, therefore we don't think it is an unreasonable request, it is not like we expect you to create something new from scratch.

The reason you gave is that some new users may be confused, now some of us are actually new users under any reasonable definition. As someone above mentioned he has started using Ubuntu only since Oneric. Is that new enough? I am sure there are more new users who would feel the same, but they just don't know that the dodge is removed in 12.04 and how to file a bug report.

 I don't know how you conduct your focus groups and how many people you have surveyed, but here there are almost 90 people who care enough to file a bug report,--as usual people who care enough to file a bug report are just a small percent of those who feel the same but either too lazy to or not knowing how. The list seems to be growing everyday too. I think as far as opinions and feedback go, ours is just as valid as those users who find the dodge confusing.

As an aside I just don't understand how the doge would be "confusing" after maybe 5 minutes of use. If they can't wrap their heads around the dodge then they probably would find all of Unity confusing and windows XP a lot more to their taste. I think this is part of the reason that some of us find your explanation not very convincing. But as other said, all you need to address that would be to change the default.

Finally, please don't be so antagonistic. We are not demanding, this is just a request. As I said before, we do like Unity and appreciate that you and your team has created it. This is not one of those "Unity sucks and why not stick to gnome2" conversations, please don't react as if it is.

Thanks.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

>I have explained at length, many many times, why we want to limit the
>number of options. All options have an impact on the rest of the code.
>Asking for any option seems to you to be reasonable, because "it has no
>cost", but it *does* have a cost, and until you understand that you are
>not a reasonable counterpart in a conversation. You'll keep thinking I'm
>an alien cannibal, and I'll keep thinking you are unable to understand
>the consequences of decisions and requests.
>
>You can help us build something amazing, but to do so you will need to
>show spine, guts and discipline. Right now, all you're showing is the
>ability to make demands repeatedly.
>
>Mark

So you admit that you removed dodge because you failed .

You failed to implement dodge or intellihide without the need of massive patching of other application and part of the code.

That one sounds like a reason . But ! It looks like that instead of try to fix every bug of a feature that was the default for 2 years and have it shiny for the LTS you decide to drop it from code and give your passion to New features like HUD and Locally integrated menus ( The latest will not land on precise as i read on your blog though ) .

Dont get me wrong we all love the new features but dodge was an essential feature that must come back .

 I cant find any logic that you like to spend hours on bug hunting for all the bug that appeared because of HUD and his shortcut "ALT key" and still dont have a solid solution ( i hear about double tap , delay , change of the default shortcuts blah blah blah ) instead of fix what was allrdy there.

At least find some other solution like the one i said on comment , or just fix the code.
#13 ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/930148/comments/15 )

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

On 05/03/12 17:54, bowser wrote:
> Finally, please don't be so antagonistic. We are not demanding, this is
> just a request.

Apologies for the sense of antagonism. I'm not angry or antagonistic,
I'm just firm about decisions, so that everyone can move on and focus on
more productive issues. I did say I was teasing ;) The point is, if it's
just a request, then "no" should suffice.

Mark

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

On 05/03/12 19:46, zzecool wrote:
> So you admit that you removed dodge because you failed .

No. Dodge failed. We did user testing on it, and it failed. Read the
unity-design list, where this was discussed at length. You would learn
something.

> You failed to implement dodge or intellihide without the need of
> massive patching of other application and part of the code.

No, there is no other application that is relevant, or needs patching.

> That one sounds like a reason . But ! It looks like that instead of
> try to fix every bug of a feature that was the default for 2 years and
> have it shiny for the LTS you decide to drop it from code and give
> your passion to New features like HUD and Locally integrated menus (
> The latest will not land on precise as i read on your blog though ) .

Again, you are mistaken. Huge numbers of bugs have been fixed, and this
code was dropped because users generally found it confusing. I liked it.
You like it. Tough - we take risks and innovate, and occasionally we
have to backtrack. That's science.

> Dont get me wrong we all love the new features but dodge was an
> essential feature that must come back .

No, it was in no sense essential. There is not a single thing you can do
with dodge that you cannot also do without it. I liked it. You liked it,
but it was not essential - and describing it like that reminds me of a
teenager describing a pimple as a matter of life and death. It may feel
that way to you, but by over-dramatizing the issue you are only reducing
the likelihood that further ideas and suggestions from you get the
attention they deserve.

Mark

[Octavian Damiean (mainerror)]

In hindsight I have to admit that the removal makes sense. Being a professional software developer it should have been evident to me right away.

The reason is logical. Since usability testing revealed that the feature confuses users it simply has to go. Just "unsetting" it as a default option wouldn't work either because software that is released has to be maintained.

People would still file bugs against that functionality. You can't just say "We leave that feature there but we don't support it with bug fixes".

Since the first ten minutes of use are a critical phase for an user it makes sense to remove it if it confuses them. We should probably invest our time and energy in implementing that feature in a parallel version of Unity. People that really want that feature would install the modified Unity version from a PPA.

[xuflete (joanarbona)]

Sorry for my bad english.

I voted for the dodge windows beause is the option that I use. Also I've been reading all the opinions above and finally I do not care why this options is removed (I understand all parts), the question is that is removed. This makes me feel very sad and dissappointed.
From a normal user I adapted to all changes: windows buttons to the left, global menus, etc. But with the autohide option I go to nowhere.

I take this occasion to send a big hello to Mr. Mark Shuttleworth. I am very sure you make the best for this super distro called Ubuntu.

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

Mark: you're utterly arrogant (and also a bit ignorant, pretending all this is about "science"). You haven't answered the single question: why is it harmfull to provide intellihide, which *every* Linux dock out there provides (read this title bug and description again, if you still can't understand it's not about having the dodge back).

"There is not a single thing you can do
with dodge that you cannot also do without it."

If you really can't figure this out after all what's been said here, I guess we're all wasting our time. But hey, you're the owner of the ball.

I guess I'll unsubscribe from this bug and "move on", as you recommend. There sure must be humbler project leaders out there.

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

@Octavian:

"The reason is logical. Since usability testing revealed that the feature confuses users it simply has to go."

You might want to learn some logic.

Since usability testing revealed that the feature confuses ***NEW*** users, and new users only, it simply must not be the default.

Try again.

[Octavian Damiean (mainerror)]

@Aleve

Right, pick a sentence out of context and be arrogant. That will definitely help solve everyone's problem.

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

@Octavian: what's the context you're referring to? Your conclusion simply doesn't follow. As a matter of fact, I've given you some context which should help you understand why "tests poorly" must be delimited. Tests poorly with which users exactly? If it tests poorly with everyone, then I'd have to agree: there's no point in having it. However, the very existence of this thread and many others in different places on the web (and the fact that every Linux dock provides intellihide) should give you and SABDFL a hint about where the failure in your line of thought is. Who's being arrogant?

@Mark: I've just finished reading the unity-design-list posts about this issue, just out of curiosity. As I was expecting, you have not given any logical explanation why you had to remove the code or the option. You have gone from "tests poorly" to "lets remove it". This has been proven a fallacy too many times to insist.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

>No. Dodge failed. We did user testing on it, and it failed. Read the
>unity-design list, where this was discussed at length. You would learn
>something.

If you have followed the comments here, i said thats i have read the list and already now the reason , but the reason of the new comers is irrelevant as we are not asking to be the default behaviour.

>No, there is no other application that is relevant, or needs patching.

One example was in my comment #47 in case you missed it :

 * debian/patches/02_additional_marge_for_unity.patch:
    - dropped, it's not required with the current launcher hidding
      behaviour (it was to deal with intellihide) and create margin issues
      (lp: #936958)

>Again, you are mistaken. Huge numbers of bugs have been fixed, and this
>code was dropped because users generally found it confusing. I liked it.
>You like it. Tough - we take risks and innovate, and occasionally we
>have to backtrack. That's science.

Is there any way that Autohide is any better than intellihide based on Science ?

>No, it was in no sense essential. There is not a single thing you can do
>with dodge that you cannot also do without it. I liked it. You liked it,
>but it was not essential - and describing it like that reminds me of a
>teenager describing a pimple as a matter of life and death.

It was essential for me and for all the other ppl that is here on this bug report , because we are used to it.
Being part of an everyday experience for 2 years made it more than habit.

Its not a matter of life and death , im not a teenager im more like close to your age but that irrelevant too because i cant see any connection between the need of a feature and my age.

We can live without it as we can live without ubuntu , but that doesn't mean that we are any better in productivity or happy.

>It may feel that way to you, but by over-dramatizing the issue you are only reducing
>the likelihood that further ideas and suggestions from you get the
>attention they deserve.

Being biased is not good. If an idea is good it doesn't matter if the guy that gave it was crazy or not.

I want to say thank you for your time . I really appreciate that you are spending time to speak with us we both want the best for ubuntu . Try to not misjudge your users .

[shane (shane-animail)]

@ Mark

Although the comments on the mailing list do make sense, most of the decision seems based on initial exposure to dodge windows and although it could well be confusing to some people could this whole situation have been solved by having big shiny visual clues on screen the first time such things are encountered? Just like Android 4? Adds a bit of bling-bling to impress new users at the same time :)

I am another of those who prefer to have dodge windows, mainly because I find autohide fiddly with a touchpad and needs too much pressure by default.
I find I mostly use the launcher when the desktop is empty so hence the usefulness of dodge. I cannot use the launcher in always show mode simply because I mostly use maximized windows and I just cannot take my eyes off the ugly top left corner of the screen where everything meets.
The way the menubar overhangs the window at the top of the launcher. Just ugly and weird.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

@shane . About your problem with the pressure + touchpad : Install ccsm ----> go to unity plugin
----> Experimental Tab -----> lower Launcher Reveal Pressure until it meets your needs =)

[shane (shane-animail)]

@ zzecool

Yes I know I can change the pressure but I shouldn't really have to install an app AND change an option to do it.
When running 11.10, I have no such pressure problems when using dodge and the launcher was off-screen.

The removal of dodge itself is not really that big an issue, it's more of an annoyance and inconvenience that I am FORCED to change a preference without being able to change it back.
The problem for me is the whole pressure/reveal behaviour but that's another matter for another time really.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

@ shane . You can file a new u report please keep this on the subject.

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

On 05/03/12 22:44, Aleve Sicofante wrote:
> Since usability testing revealed that the feature confuses ***NEW***
> users, and new users only, it simply must not be the default.
>
> Try again.

New users don't become committed users if they are confused early on in
their explorations.

Aleve, there is something here for you to learn, I would urge you to
think about it.

Mark

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

On 05/03/12 23:35, Aleve Sicofante wrote:
> You
> have gone from "tests poorly" to "lets remove it". This has been proven
> a fallacy too many times to insist.

References for that assertion?

[shane (shane-animail)]

Even with dodge windows gone, I still think the original question regarding hiding the launcher for maximized window is valid.

As I said in a previous statement, a simple visual cue would solve any confusion.

So a new user logs in to their desktop, opens a few apps, clicks on the dash etc... So far so good.
A user then maximizes and window and *poof* where's the launcher gone? Confused!

So how about a new user logs in to their desktop, opens a few apps, clicks on the dash etc... So far so good.
A user then maximizes a window and before the launcher vanishes a small box pops up with an arrow pointing to the launcher, maybe in the style of the quicklist menus, with a simple message:

"When you maximize a an application, the launcher will move out of the way for you, giving you more space to work".
Obviously the wording could be much improved but it would let the new user know exactly what is happening the first time they see it, without changing the behaviour people have become used to.

Aren't those who were new users with 11.10 going to be confused or annoyed when they upgrade to the new version and find behaviour they were used to has suddenly vanished and they don't know why?
I'm sure they aren't going to think of searching mailing lists for the reason and so there will be another wave of complaints and discussions on this issue which is likely to continue for some time.

[Bertrandel (mezcalbert)]

I would love to hear what Mark has to say about the above comment I posted a few days ago and the very reasons and arguments why "There are many things you can do with dodge that you cannot do without it.". And why not removing autohide instead, which is definitely the useless and "dumb" behaviour. Or making it at least usable with intellihide.

The smart behaviour was the main distinction with Gnome Shell. Now that we'll also have to trigger everything the dumb way just to see which instances are open (with a laptop touchpad, have fun!) or the progress bars, and such, why stick to Unity if it becomes even less productive than GS is?
The other option would be to stick to Unity in 11.10, there's NOT ONE new feature in 12.04 worth losing dodging anyway.
Just because of this removal, it's the first time in 5 years using Ubuntu I'm stuck in a dead-end preventing me from upgrading. That's frustrating. Even more if I consider how seamless and bug-free dodging works for me.

Attracting 1 newcomer through one ear at the "precise" moment 2 long time faithful users leave out the other may not be the best way to keep the momentum on a product.

[f_padia (f-padia)]

@ Bertrandel and all the others complaining about the loss of dodge windows... First of all I agree with you that the loss of dodge windows is bad. It was a lovely (and intuitive) feature imho and for it to be completely removed is a real shame and even slightly puzzling. HOWEVER, the decision has been made. Dodge windows is gone and we should accept that. While i'm no way an Ubuntu fanboy I do have a lot of respect for MS and all the people that make Ubuntu what it is and I back the decisions that they make. Of course, it is important to point out decisions we think are bad and I believe in this case that had been done quite clearly. Hopefully this will mean the feature will make a return as some point in the future. But now lets put this aside and embrace new features (such as HUD which I think is great :)).
I find it hard to believe that some long time members will stop using the OS simply because the launcher does not dodge windows. Thats really quite childish behaviour if you think about it. It's like the following child: "I want that one". parent: "No you're not allowed it". child: "fine then im not your friend, im leaving"

Now im not in anyway suggesting Ubuntu is the parent and the user is the child! bu im just trying to emphasise my point. leaving an OS because of one lost feature isnt a mature move. Besides if you just wanted a bit of eye-candy and some nice features then maybe other OS's would be better for you anyway (not referring to any in particular ;)). But I personally have countless other reasons for using Ubuntu and so the loss of this single feature, in truth, wont affect me much at all.

[shane (shane-animail)]

Dodge windows is gone, yes but this report is about the possibility of autohiding the launcher for maximized windows only.
That surely wouldn't need the return of dodge and all it's code?

[f_padia (f-padia)]

@shane, sorry I went a bit off track in my response, I got caught up in all the previous comments about the loss of dodge... Im no developer so I wouldn't know what was involved in making your suggestion work, but it does sound reasonable. Personally I'm not sure i'd like this behaviour because it would lead to inconsistent behaviour for a single setting. e.g. for maximised windows the launcher would autohide but for non-maximised windows the launcher would behave differently. Judging from the reason(s) that dodge was removed I dont think the behvaiour you suggest would be suitable either i.e. new users would probably find it confusing (and maybe even a little annoying too).

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

On 06/03/12 11:34, shane wrote:
> Dodge windows is gone, yes but this report is about the possibility of autohiding the launcher for maximized windows only.
> That surely wouldn't need the return of dodge and all it's code?
>

It would trigger the very experience which tested worst for dodge.

Mark

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

"New users don't become committed users if they are confused early on in their explorations."
Hence: let's move dodge from default to optional. NOT "remove dodge". Can't you seriously get that?

Moreover: committed users go away if you keep changing the way Unity works on every release (or changing default apps for obscure reasons, like the Rythmbox-Banshee dance). As a matter of fact, keeping seasoned users is Ubuntu's biggest problem right now. Especially when you keep infuriating them by coming here to play games (teasing).

"Aleve, there is something here for you to learn, I would urge you to think about it."

I'm eager to learn. Please enlighten me, but stop playing games (teasing and smilies).

On 05/03/12 23:35, Aleve Sicofante wrote:
> You
> have gone from "tests poorly" to "lets remove it". This has been proven
> a fallacy too many times to insist.

References for that assertion?

1. If you're talking about "You have gone from tests poorly to let's remove it" you can't be seriously asking for references. The unity-design list is full of them.

2. If you're talking about "This has been proven a fallacy too many times to insist" you might want to re-read the whole thread here. But you must first admit what LOGIC DICTATES. When a good feature (it IS good, even you yourself like it and this very bug shows it is) is not newbie-friendly the right thing to do is to keep it hidden for advanced users to use, not removing it. Of course "killing the dog will end the rabies" (literal translation of Spanish proverb), but logic explains that "ending the rabies should be about keeping the dog alive".

Removing a feature MUST be the result of many parameters. Claiming this feature isn't maintainable MIGHT be a good reason (when added to others, like the newbie confusion or its eventual uselessness, which has been also disproved), and that's exactly why a clever guy (the OP) suggested to replace dodge with simple intellihide. Here:

if (anyWindow.maximized) {
     launcher.hide;
}
else launcher.show;

Yes, it's pseudo-code (at best, it's been ages since I stopped programming), but even the most complex implementation can't go much farther. You can't seriously say that function is hard to maintain. You can't also seriously say there are serious implications of having "too many options" when intellihide just implements an intelligent way to switch between always-hide and always-show, two states that are already supported.

The problem here, I'm afraid, is that you have made a decision ("It's settled") without even exploring alternatives (intellihide) or even applying basic logic (dogs and rabies...)

[Fabien Lusseau (fabien-beosfrance)]

Yes but if this is just an option for advanced user, this will trigger productivity ... Now I am switching between autohide (that I hate because I can't view the progression bar and all the indications on the launcher) and never hide (which is just a big waste of space on dual screen sets ... even with the smallest icon setting)

Now I use KDE ... Multi screen on Unity has become such a mess ...
I have a big problem related to the two screens having different maximum resolution and filling a bug seems such a waste of time in here recently ...

I very pleased that we at least speak about what I was suggesting ^^
Not a "full" dodge window, but a simplified one. Just autohide when something is maximized and never hide when nothing is maximized. Sort of a full screen mode. And it's already too late for Precise I'm afraid.

[shane (shane-animail)]

"It would trigger the very experience which tested worst for dodge."

Which as I have said a couple of times, could be completely avoided with a simple visual message the first time it happens.

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

@f_padia: "the decision has been made. Dodge windows is gone and we should accept that. "

Why? Is this Microsoft or Apple now? Mark is here. We're debating. If this is set in stone and there's no way on Earth intellihide can be implemented (THIS BUG IS NOT ABOUT BRINGING BACK DODGE, PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING) I want to hear it ASAP. Wasting people's time is not nice.

[xuflete (joanarbona)]

<<<<"I find it hard to believe that some long time members will stop using the OS simply because the launcher does not dodge windows. Thats really quite childish behaviour if you think about it. It's like the following child: "I want that one". parent: "No you're not allowed it". child: "fine then im not your friend, im leaving"">>>>

Why childish? I think bertrandel is not the only one who can leave Ubuntu for another distro. If you read his comment above, he is "afraid" to leave Ubuntu, he doesn't want to, for this reason is a comment which I'm very identified with. One of the greatest value of the free software is the possibility to choose. The people to is posting here, is people who wants to use unity: there is a lot of people who doesn't like unity, they perhaps moved to Mint, but now, it is necessary to add more people?? people who likes unity??t

In my opinion childish is who goes ahead without listening other people who maybe thinks different.

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

@shane: You are exactly right.

I'd like to add something that has been suggested in other places (I believe it was at OMG Ubuntu comments). A slow animation when hiding the launcher at window's maximize would explain what's going on very easily. The problem for newbies seems to be the launcher just disappears. They don't have a problem with dodging the launcher with non-maximized windows because dodging is animated and follows the movement of the window dodging it. They have a problem with the launcher just vanishing when a window is maximized. Instead of vanishing the launcher, a visible animation of the launcher going away would explain its behavior perfectly well. Of course you can add a tip balloon the first time time too (with a "don't show again" box or something similar).

Has this slow animation/tip been tested too?

[f_padia (f-padia)]

@Aleve: "(THIS BUG IS NOT ABOUT BRINGING BACK DODGE, PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING)"

Please read your own posts before asking me to read before posting... Nearly every single one of your posts tries to make a case for bringing back dodge or at least moans about the loss of dodge.

"Is this Microsoft or Apple now"
clearly, this is neither of those comapnies, but I dont see your point here, are you suggesting that they are the only companies that make decisions on features? or are you suggesting that they dont listen to users?

"We're debating"
Fair enough, but when it has been pointed out that "The issue has been settled" (see post #43) it becomes less of a debate and more of a complaint.

"If this is set in stone and there's no way on Earth intellihide can be implemented I want to hear it ASAP"
Use your logic here (by the way I love the dog and rabies thing I cant wait to use that myself :)). If dodge was dropped because of poor user testing, and more specifically, because new users found it confusing do you noestly think that changing the behaviour of the launcher for different situations is going to fare any better? Logic tells me no.

Let me re-iterate I agree with you that dodge was good, and on that basis I think intellihide would also be be a decent feature, but on LOGIC alone it clearly would not make sense to consider such a feature.

[Fabien Lusseau (fabien-beosfrance)]

I must also add to my later comment that I don't like KDE very much it's an horrible mess of options, a lot are inconsistently placed. And I don't want Unity to become like that. So if I'm "requesting" to add an other optional behavior for the launcher, it's because I feel that it's crucial.

As crucial as making unity on multiscreen setting with different resolution not messing up when it come to maximize a Window. If a window is too big for the "little" screen when I click maximize the window literally jump to the big screen, I have to resize the window to fit in the little screen, then I can maximize ... (Is this bug already reported ? Because everyone laugh at Unity when they see me fighting with it when I do some presentation with a projector ... And that's really embarrassing ^^ )

[f_padia (f-padia)]

@xuflete "In my opinion childish is who goes ahead without listening other people who maybe thinks different"

but clearly they have listened to people who think differently. Mark himself said he liked dodge, but the users in the testing said they didn't. and so it was removed. If thats called going ahead without listening to other people who thinks different then what you're actually suggesting is that the only correct descision is one that agrees with your opinion which ironically is what you're calling childish.
If you choose to ignore the fact that user testing showed that dodge behaviour wasnt good then thats up to you. Granted we have to take Mark's word on the fact that it didnt go down well with new users but once you do accept that there really isnt anything to it.

[xuflete (joanarbona)]

@f_padia: Sorry to have been too much insistent, I only wanted dodge windows as an option (not necessary by default). Now I realize I'm asking maybe too much. Now I'm childish:
"papa, can I go out tonight"
"NOOO!!"
"ok, papa"

[shane (shane-animail)]

@ Mark

If you get chance to read back over some of the recent comments, could you please give your views on the specific idea of a visual message to explain where the launcher has gone and whether such an approach has been tested?

[Bertrandel (mezcalbert)]

@f_padia. An operating system does what it's called, it operates a system, and I would even say it's operating a workflow, the one that makes your tasks (and life) easier. So yes, using Unity without dodge/intellihide is not an option for me. It will make my workflow a lot more unintuitive, uncomfortable and definitely slower. The reason I liked Unity ways over Gnome Shell was this one precisely, you don't have to make many annoying and useless large gestures to get the gist of what you're currently doing/is currently open. At least in Gnome Shell you can use extensions to make up for it. In Unity, nothing can compensate the lack of overview of this dumb autohide.

I'm by no means resistant to change (e.g. Unity, buttons on left, Global menu, ... ), I've always adapted, but Unity without dodging is not an option for me, there's no way to adapt to this. I've tried both options left a few times, and both are uncomfortable and getting in my way, unusable, autohide taking the biscuit in terms of uselessness.
So what I don't get is why they don't remove autohide instead, which no newcomer will understand anyhow, is dumb, uncomfortable and useless. This would spare resources more appropriately, since the smart behaviour is definitely required.

Or they can give us a PPA. Or intellihide with visual message. Whatever they want, I don't care, as long as they let us the possibility to use the only behaviour either productive (as opposed to autohide), consistent (as opposed to never hide) and ergonomic (as opposed to autohide).

[Ego (egogratis)]

I wanted to see this proposal by my self and test it on my PC and with some help of fellow Ubuntu users i managed to do this:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=11743771&postcount=6

Properly configured Bash script started at session login (Startup Applications) that detects maximized windows and hides/shows the launcher accordingly. This solution only works on single screen/workspace but it demonstrates this proposal!

If i would have enough experience i would probably try to use data from Window manager. Both Metacity and Compiz have support for detecting maximized widows (_NET_WM_STATE, ATOM[])?

http://standards.freedesktop.org/wm-spec/wm-spec-1.3.html

Will this still be there when migration to Wayland is done? Bit to technical for me yes.

Two things i think this implementation should consider:

First:

Launcher should act the same as Dodge Windows does it should detect maximized windows "per screen/workspace". I don't know how this is done but "per screen/workspace" detection is a must.

Second:

What happens when launcher hides?

1.) I don't think launcher should Dodge to Windows that are not maximized. It should act exactly the same as never hide mode does and only be hidden when one or more window(s) are maximized. There is nothing hard to understand here for the user it does exactly what it is supposed to to if it does this reliably?

2.) Desktop icons should not jump to the edge. They should stay exactly in the same position from never hide mode.

3.) This one is a bit tricky. What should happen to the windows on the desktop. Should they be moved around on triggering hide/show and should they be "positioned inside launcher area" when launcher is hidden and "aero snap" is used?

Maximized application should never minimize inside launcher area. They should always respect never hide mode. For "aero snap" i don't know. If it's trouble then no user should not be able to position open windows with "aero snap" inside launcher area. It should act the same as never hide mode does.

And this solution brings another benefit. It was asked in this topic if this will be implemented:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/930148/comments/15

Useful feature isn't it? Suggestion i made this would already be implemented? User would not be bothered with settings. If user wants the whole screen just press maximize button else there is nothing wrong if the launcher is on the screen. True?

And please don't say user will get confused if Unity Shell will not be d*mb. It will be "d*mb enough" when he tries it but later on if he choose to use it he will start to like this mode and be bragging to his/her friends about it!

[shane (shane-animail)]

Without wanting to sound inflammatory (it certainly isn't meant to), I would be interested to know why the feedback of a handful of individuals who are unfamiliar with unity seems more valuable than that of the 90+ people who have marked themselves affected by this bug (as some people clearly consider it)?
I am not devaluing the usefulness of such testing but I would assume many, if not all the people who have contributed to this bug have been using unity for at least one release cycle.
These are people for whom the dodge behaviour was also new to them but they don't seem to have been confused by it?
As I have mentioned before, plenty of users who were new last term are going to be confused by the removal of a feature they have become used to.

Personally, I can use either behaviour. I prefer dodge/autohide for maximized windows but I CAN live without it.
Others clearly feel much more strongly on the subject.
I would guess the 90+ people affected so far will be over 100 within a few days and that seems like an awful lot of people to ignore.

[Zies McDoom (jasonflindt)]

I think the there is only two things wrong with 11.10 launcher . Browser back button can reviel the launcher if you are not carefull , easy fix just move the fire fox button a little to the right and you cant minamise by clicking on the icon in the launcher that are already active .

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

I want to apologize for the name calling. No matter what I think about MS, I shouldn't have called him ignorant and arrogant. It just infuriated me that he came here to joke and tease.

Since he stated this is settled, I suggest we stop arguing about the decision and follow the open source path (the design team's logic has been proven flawed already and we should not expect an illogical decision to be reconsidered by logical argumentation): bring it back ourselves and ignore the official position. I wouldn't be surprised if the feature was brought back officially in future releases. Since logic is out of the equation, decisions in Ubuntu are easily taken and easily reverted. (That's exactly why I have a hard time deploying Ubuntu in professional environments, btw. Unpredictability is probably the number one "feature" of Ubuntu these days.)

@f_padia: Apple and Microsoft dictate. I don't know if they listen or not, but they definitely dictate without any public discussion between design leaders and users. I've never seen Jobs, Gates or Balmer chatting with their users. I was hoping Ubuntu would be different from that. Maybe I'm just wrong.

@Ego: great initiative. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I believe most of us just want a clean maximized window environment and will live happily with the slight inconsistencies your approach might bring (where non-maximized windows are allowed to go, etc.). You have proven it can be done easily (so much for "hard to maintain code"). More experienced developers might follow and implement this at a lower level, then provide a PPA. My fingers are crossed. Did I say thank you?

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

"1.) I don't think launcher should Dodge to Windows that are not maximized. It should act exactly the same as never hide mode does and only be hidden when one or more window(s) are maximized. There is nothing hard to understand here for the user it does exactly what it is supposed to to if it does this reliably?"

Totally agreed. This is just what intellihide means.

"2.) Desktop icons should not jump to the edge. They should stay exactly in the same position from never hide mode."

Again, I completely agree.

"3.) This one is a bit tricky. What should happen to the windows on the desktop. Should they be moved around on triggering hide/show and should they be "positioned inside launcher area" when launcher is hidden and "aero snap" is used?"

I think implementing sophistication in a script is a bit too ambitious. Sure, ideally the launcher should intellihide when you tile your windows to cover the whole screen, and maybe some other cases, but this introduces a complexity that is beyond the basic need: just hide the launcher when at least one window is maximized, so you can concentrate on the work at hand a make use of the most screen real estate, especially on netbooks.

[shane (shane-animail)]

On point 3, I don't think any added complexities would help the matter.
Just a simple, no compromise rule. If the window isn't fully maximized, then the launcher follows the behaviour as set in the options and that includes tiling or anything else.

Of course even that would still require a third user option or even a checkbox, "Hide when maximized" next to the Always show option.

[Ego (egogratis)]

It should act as never hide mode and only hide the launcher when at least one window is maximized. If in the future somebody would decide "aero snap" should use launcher area too and windows should resize then great if not OK too but probably there would be some pressure form users to add some complexity? But this decision is something that can still be made in the future if this mode does not get completely removed but until then it would work just as never hide mode does and only hide the launcher when at least one window is maximized.

It does not have to have the setting in System Setting if this is a problem. Tools like MyUnity will pick this up quickly and we will find it! And i went trough this bug report and basically i noticed everybody like this mode?

[Zies McDoom (jasonflindt)]

On 02/03/12 23:25, Aleve Sicofante wrote:
> Bowser is right: 80+ people have come here to ask for something very
> reasonable because we do care about Unity, and you think there's
> something to joke about?
>
> Yes we have all read what people affected by this bug have to say. We
> haven't read what the decision makers -that includes YOU- have to say.
> Are you listening and reasoning or not?

Easy fixed , make it an option . Then you dont have to please us all becouse it will be our choice.

Yes, I'm listening and reasoning. This has been debated extensively on
the unity-design list. You can find the rationale from me there. I take
Ubuntu and Unity very seriously, I devote my life to them. Decisions are
not taken lightly, but even decisions that are carefully taken will have
folk who disagree. It is not possible to please everybody all the time,
even those who are generally supportive of what we're doing, or
contributors, will disagree with some bits.

The issue has been settled, and if you care enough about it, you'll find
the rationale and be satisfied that at least it was considered and
experimented with and decided against. This was one of my favourite
features too, but I believe taking it out makes the whole better.

I will never convince all of you. So I'm just going to tease those of
you who want to start this discussion again from step 1.0.

[Zies McDoom (jasonflindt)]

Just give us the choice . Allways visable , auto hide or Widows can cover like in KDE

[shane (shane-animail)]

The "rationale" is that the behaviour causes confusion.
After several proposals that could completely eliminate such confusion, the rationale doesn't seem very rational.

[Corey Kearney (snkiz-deactivatedaccount)]

well we have gotten our answer. No mater how illogical, or lacking truth, it is what it is. I just have one question before I unsubscribe to this bug. If design truly believes in the rational behind not just changing a reasonable and intelligent feature, but gutting it entirely. Then why is it still a part of unity 2D? The cynic in me says it's because they know they've fubar'd compiz beyond repair. They aren't using compiz in any of their other unity projects, wonder why? Canonical doesn't care about desktop users, we are nothing more than beta testers. Testers they don't listen to half the time anyway.

[Zies McDoom (jasonflindt)]

Confusion for new users ? New users get confused by the software centre , min max button on the left not the right and even more when the window has been maxed and the min max button go to the top bar . None of these have been dropped . Hud may will be confusing for new and old users alike but it wont be defoult . Who would of guest we have been given a choice on this one . New users are part of thhe 80 % market share that ms windows holds .
This is ubuntu not windows it has a steep learning curve for all new users becouse its not the norm . As MS say Ubuntu is now about leading not following . ( Confution WILL Follow if you are a leader and question or change the Status quo )

[Richard Gaskin (rg4w)]

The current default is a good one - stick with it.

New users would be unaffected by allowing Dodge as an option which is not the default. As such, all those who like it would still have it available, so everyone here would get exactly what they're after.

I've read many comments about how poorly Dodge tested with users, and have been impressed with the willingness to let a feature go based on user testing results. But unless those tests showed similar results for the decision to conceal menu commands from the user, it would seem there are reasonable questions about the methodology used in those tests.

Even if we take the user testing results as reported at face value, allowing Dodge as a non-default option lies completely outside of those results, since they would affect zero new users except those who explicitly go out of their way to use Dodge.

Given how well Dodge worked functionally, this seems like a win-win for all; I'm having difficulty understanding why there's a conflict at all here.

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

On 13/03/12 19:47, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> I've read many comments about how poorly Dodge tested with users, and
> have been impressed with the willingness to let a feature go based on
> user testing results. But unless those tests showed similar results for
> the decision to conceal menu commands from the user, it would seem there
> are reasonable questions about the methodology used in those tests.

We also decided to provide an option to show the menu all the time, or
to integrate it in the app window, based on testing. The feature missed
the development window for 12.04, but will land in due course. Hopefully
that puts your concerns to rest.

[Richard Gaskin (rg4w)]

Mr. Shuttleworth, you just made my day. Thanks for that update. I'll drop a note in the Ubuntu forums where this comes up frequently - it'll make a lot of folks as happy as I am.

[shane (shane-animail)]

Regarding the subject matter of this bug report, an ubuntu forums member has been working on the following script which enables hiding for MAXIMIZED windows only: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=11761683&postcount=15

I have been using this script for the past few days and it works wonderfully and I prefer it to the full-on dodge behaviour.
If this is possible with such a small and pretty simple simple, would it really require much code to implement in unity?

Seems a good compromise to me...

[Bertrandel (mezcalbert)]

Funny Canonical had to wait for new users (pseudo-)scientific (/dumb) testing to implement something like LIM when all they had to do was to "listen" to the crowd complaining for ages about what global menu meant in terms of non-maximized windows. Hell, it was right there one step away from their ears but still they made the whole trip around the world to get the exact same result.

I guess they will now learn their lessons. Dodge, intellihide, smart, anyone?

[Omer Akram (om26er)]

The lesson is to *not* troll on bug reports.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

@Omer Akram I dont think 100 ppl who is actually beta testers are spending their time here to this specific bug report to "troll"

Now go up and read Mark's comments same of them could easily support the Troll face , no offence here.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

sry for the typos*

[zzecool (zzecool)]

Here is another problem based on the removal of dodge - not having a window fully truly maximized.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dfO89c_42g

As autohide is not an option for me for reasons i allready explained on his bug report , the only solution that i can think is intellide or what i described on the comment #15 ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/930148/comments/15 ) , having different launcher behavior per workspace - output.

Any other thoughts are welcome as this application is one example and multiple others can be made.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

I want to add that the the video is on a 15 inch laptop with 1280x800 native resolution.

[zzecool (zzecool)]

In addition to my comment #110

Imagine 3 identical laptops ( 15 inch , 1280x800 ) running a fresh install of Ubuntu 12.04 , OSx and Win 7 .

The ubuntu laptop will be the only one that cant support 4 columns in Hootsuite out of the box. Something that come in total conflict with : Unity: A desktop experience designed for efficiency of space and interaction.

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

@Mark:

On 13/03/12 19:47, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> I've read many comments about how poorly Dodge tested with users, and
> have been impressed with the willingness to let a feature go based on
> user testing results. But unless those tests showed similar results for
> the decision to conceal menu commands from the user, it would seem there
> are reasonable questions about the methodology used in those tests.

We also decided to provide an option to show the menu all the time, or
to integrate it in the app window, based on testing. The feature missed
the development window for 12.04, but will land in due course. Hopefully
that puts your concerns to rest.

--

Would you clarify what "due course" means? No luck for LTS users? Possible in 12.04.x?

Let me show you my disappointment that so many resources have gone into an experimental feature like the HUD, when fundamental usability issues like this have been neglected.

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

As of today, I can see dodge is still available in Unity 2D. Not the default, but available as an option via "2D Desktop Settings" app, by Mariano Chavero. (Thank you so much Mariano.)

@Mark: Can we expect it to live there or are you planning to remove dodge from Unity 2d too?

I wouldn't mind living in Unity 2D if dodge was still maintained there (there are only slight differences with 3D and it actually performs faster in older hardware).

If someone finds a patch for the permanent menus to work, I might actually switch some 20 customers from Windows to Ubuntu this Spring.

Fingers crossed.

[Claudiu Vlad (claudiu-vlad)]

It was very hard for anyone to accept this(read anagram) Unity thing. The Gnome2 GUI was perfect for millions.
However, some are determined to reduce the numbers of users even more, with poorly argumented decisions.
I think someone should take things more seriously, after all they are "targeting the business sector", and Ubuntu is not some rich kid toy.
They are targeting the touchscreen market but this thing will not have a future, because of poor pointing capabilities, and 90% of the users still use the mouse and have HUGE screens like >21inch, so no need to save screen space using this Unity.
I conclude that both scenarios - with autohide and fixed panel - are bad scenarios.
Why didn't they give us a PPA or an "apt-get install unity-dodge" plugin or something like this? I would say that people accept bad news easier when you give them alternatives.

[Claudiu Vlad (claudiu-vlad)]

After the last updates, I see that maximized windows DO NOT go under the Unity panel, but near its margin. This is MUCH better.
Cheers for the devs,

[Laurent Dinclaux (dreadlox)]

Please dodge that feature back, it was awesome !

[Ego (egogratis)]

I am happy with my script it does the job but "i have one KISS solution for the masses" that i thing it could work:

On single monitor environments:

1.) "Tap" somewhere on empty space or predefined "spot" on the Launcher puts the Launcher in autohide mode.
2.) "Tap" again and voila it's in never hide mode.

Easy stuff isn't it? I know this is done manually but i think it could work good for most scenarios user wants. The only issue i see is should the icons on the desktop move or not. I think they should not or/and i will leave this to debate.

On multi monitor environments:

3.) "Per Launcher" setting could be used if Launcher would be used on all displays or fourth option would be used:
4.) One launcher only on primary display with option 1 and 2 available.

Main objectives:

a.) Unity: A desktop experience designed for efficiency of space and interaction.
b.) Unity: Lean Shell and Lean Code for Lean Users

Achieved?

[Ego (egogratis)]

I thought about this again and i think "manual method" could work but basically two thoughts prevailed.

-Dodge Windows was unique feature of Unity Shell used by many users and that alone is big enough reason not to remove it.
-I use my script to hide the launcher when at least one windows is maximized. If i achieved this in few days time and it is robust and works reliable then there really isn't any excuse this could not be easily implemented and maintained in Unity.

This two options are the way to go.

In the end i hope you won't "insist" just to "insist" this should not be available by default and common sense will prevail!

[Danillo (danillo)]

Hey, Ego, since the decision to remove dodge from default Unity was made and apparently will not be reversed, what about integrating your script into 3rd-party applications like Ubuntu Tweak or Unsettings? They have some extra options that not even CCSM have (like natural scrolling and removal of global menus and overlay scrollbars), so they look like the perfect place for non-default functionality like this one.

[manny (estelar57)]

http://www.webupd8.org/2012/03/get-dodge-windows-unity-autohide.html

[Cyones77 (cyones77)]

personally, i have no problem with default behaviours change. thats canonicals decision. but starting from a "default" feature and ending in "feature removed" is too hard. you can't hard-remove a feature which has been THE DEFAULT since a year. i you want change the default config, but let the possibility that people who want can change the config to the old default. thx

[Ego (egogratis)]

@Danillo

If script would be implemented in third party "tweak tool" then before that multi screen support should be implemented.

Next natural step would be implementing something like this inside Unity. Script is more like "proof of concept" and something that can be tested in real world on how exactly this idea would work. I use the script and i can't imagine i would not be able to use Unity like this anymore and that is why i shared my script for other to use. But i don't think it's optimal solution.

-Probably detection of maximized windows could be done differently.
-Somebody with experience in Unity/Compiz development could implement something like this to be "bulletproof" in all scenarios not just Single Screen / Multi Workspaces.
-Moving the icons on desktop and produced "flickering" is not optimal. Icons should not change position but i can't control that with my script. In past Unity 2D used "strut" but it does not anymore and in Unity 3D it would not work anyway. Icons on the desktop should always stay in "newer hide" mode.
-There is one question on how should windows behave when launcher hides/shows. I think they could behave exactly the same as they do in "never hide" mode. User could manually move the window inside launcher area when launcher is hidden but when using "aero snap" and other Compiz windows alignment features they should respect "never hide" mode.

This would probably take away a lot of complexity in the code and "flickering" of resized windows too and it makes sense too. If u maximize at least one window then there isn't much sense in "tiling windows" in front of it. But if developers don't have much troubles in implementing different behavior then sure why not.

There always is another (tiny) fact. Users actually would like to use this mode and i do believe users want something like this by default. And of course old "Dodge Behavior" would work too.

I am willing to help further but ATM i don't have necessary skills to make anything beyond this script. I see the script has got some "media attention" and maybe i can trade "some fame" for "some love" from somebody making this happen inside Unity. Imagine the one that pulls this off well be famous! :D

[Zies McDoom (jasonflindt)]

here is a work around it works good enough for me , not as good as window dodge but better than the two alternatives

http://www.webupd8.org/2012/03/get-dodge-windows-unity-autohide.html#more

[shane (shane-animail)]

Seems to me there are currently two burning issues amongst users, this and the minimize from launcher issue.
In both cases it has driven the community to come up with their own solutions.

Does this not give a case for some sort of "unity-addons" (or extras or extensions or something) package?

As I have said before, when oblivious 11.10 users upgrade and find the dodge behaviour not only gone but removed altogether, there is going to be more uproar.

The more users are ignored, the more they are going to be forced into finding other ways of doing things.
This may lead to more 3rd party repos or PPA's which may well include badly coded or buggy workarounds which are then going to end up here on launchpad as bug reports.

Both the current hide for maximized windows and minimize from launcher workarounds would require a few lines of code, is there really such a lack of resources in this team that this couldn't be worked into unity or as an extras package if you really want to keep unity that lean?

After all, the HUD has made it from nothing to it's current state in just a few months and I'm sure that is more complex than hide on maximized?

Either way, I have completely lost patience with ubuntu. I hear so much a bout "user testing" deciding things yet almost 200 users here alone are being completely ignored.

[Sera (seraphim6x7)]

I'm very interested in learning how 'dodge' tested against 'autohide' in the usability testing. Are the results available anywhere? I realise doing a proper writeup takes time but the design research page is quite empty[1].

For me atleast it was quite surprising to not have a unity bar visible after updating to 12.04 and I find it unintuitive that autohide would be preferable over intellihide.

[1] http://design.canonical.com/the-research/

[Andrei Tatar (andrei-ttr)]

Just giving my 2 cents in, i agree that for some users the launcher suddenly hiding would be confusing, but i say "Dodge active window" and "Dodge all windows" should still be available as options (selectable through ccsm, ubuntu tweak, what have you, for the poweruser) and just set the default to never hide. In this way we can avoid confusing users while still giving power of customization to people who know what dodge is and like its behaviour.
I honestly don't see any benefit from actually removing the dodge code from unity.

[Zies McDoom (jasonflindt)]

Who Does the testing . Real world users from all different enviroments or Sheltered team members focused only on the desktop in there own cubical enviroment ?

[shane (shane-animail)]

From what I have read previously, around 10-20 test subjects from all walks of life and varying computer experience given various tasks to try and write down their feedback on how they got on with said tasks (writing an email, launching a web browser, viewing a photo etc I imagine).

I have also read about some 60 minute tests where subjects are sat in front of unity for an hour to see how quickly they take to it.

Not sure what kind of tests were used to decide the dodge thing.

[Danillo (danillo)]

About the usability testings, Charline Poirier from the design team is sharing their methodology in the Canonical Design blog: http://design.canonical.com/2012/03/about-usability-testing-recruiting/

[Vipin (vipinmatthews)]

i like to keep the launcher out of my way when i am working. that said, dodge windows was the perfect option for me. the launcher popped up only when i wanted it.

now that dodge windows option is down, all i am left with is the autohide launcher option. the problem with that is the launcher is not present when the computer turns on. i know that it is there but my father doesn't. he just sits there thinking that the booting process has not completed. this is a serious usability problem.

the always show behaviour of the launcher is directly contradicting the statement " Unity: A desktop experience designed for efficiency of space and interaction." this was the design principle that i loved in unity.

please bring back the doge windows if possible. otherwise at least implement this maximised windows version. it is not perfect but it will do..

[Carl Ansell (afccarl1994)]

Adding autohide on window maximise would fix bug 873541.

At present, a new user will either see misaligned window controls on fullscreen windows (bug 873541), or an empty desktop if they set the launcher to always hide.

Surely fullscreen windows that appear 'broken' isn't a good thing for a new user to see, particularly in an LTS release. If this was added, it would fix this bug, at least until a more elegant solution could be implemented.

[Stéphane Guillou (stephane-guillou)]

More than 200 people have the same "opinion".

Maybe you guys should do something about it and give the choice to users.

[papukaija (papukaija)]

Could you please explain why this feature won't be implemented? Thanks.

[Jim (overcow)]

The dodge feature was brilliant. It seems to me that the goal is to focus on new users and to assume that skilled computer users will accept what they are given. This is the process Microsoft followed with Vista. I've been trying to get comfortable with Gnome 3. Time will tell where I will end up on this.

Hide on Maximize would meet my minimal needs. Bringing "Dodge windows" back would be awesome but I don't think power users are important for the 12.04 release at least.

[[e-mail] (damianatorrpm)]

Adrian Wechner (adrian-wechner) wrote on 2012-02-26: #22
personally, i have no problem with default behaviours change. thats canonicals decision. but starting from a "default" feature and ending in "feature removed" is too hard. you can't hard-remove a feature which has been THE DEFAULT since a year. i you want change the default config, but let the possibility that people who want can change the config to the old default. thx

+1

To all who want that behaviour AS AN OPTION back +1

If this is not going to happen until 12.04 final - You leave me no choice rather to uninstall on my pc and laptop and on the laptop of 3 friends of mine whom I installed ubuntu to install them opensuse and remove ubuntu since the best option was removed. My friends were saying why did you upgrade us to that beta stuff - the launcher sucks now!

[Claudiu Vlad (claudiu-vlad)]

I chose the "always show" option and I am quite happy with it.

All maximized windows dont go under or over panel so the panel is really OK.

Try it yourself,

Cheers,

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 4:41 PM, <email address hidden> <
<email address hidden>> wrote:

> Adrian Wechner (adrian-wechner) wrote on 2012-02-26: #22
> personally, i have no problem with default behaviours change. thats
> canonicals decision. but starting from a "default" feature and ending in
> "feature removed" is too hard. you can't hard-remove a feature which has
> been THE DEFAULT since a year. i you want change the default config, but
> let the possibility that people who want can change the config to the old
> default. thx
>
> +1
>
> To all who want that behaviour AS AN OPTION back +1
>
> If this is not going to happen until 12.04 final - You leave me no
> choice rather to uninstall on my pc and laptop and on the laptop of 3
> friends of mine whom I installed ubuntu to install them opensuse and
> remove ubuntu since the best option was removed. My friends were saying
> why did you upgrade us to that beta stuff - the launcher sucks now!
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/930148
>
> Title:
> Dodge windows is down but what about making the launcher autohide only
> on maximised apps ?
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/930148/+subscriptions
>

[[e-mail] (damianatorrpm)]

Of course I tried. It sucks badly

[Tsvetko (tsvetko.tsvetkov-deactivatedaccount)]

Check out these articles.

Get Dodge Windows Unity Autohide Behaviour For Maximized Windows In Ubuntu 12.04
http://www.webupd8.org/2012/03/get-dodge-windows-unity-autohide.html

Real Window Dodge Unity Launcher Bahaviour For Ubuntu 12.04
http://www.webupd8.org/2012/04/real-window-dodge-unity-launcher.html

[Sera (seraphim6x7)]

The "always show" option is really not efficient on "modern" laptop screens and doesn't present a clean interface. The "authohide" option is far from pleasant due to bug #986067.

The dodge scripts above are similar in function to the old dodge behaviour but causes fullscreen windows to resize (which is slow and very noticable) and do so with inconsistent timing (those scripts every n seconds instead of being event-based) which is confusing.

[[e-mail] (damianatorrpm)]

You do change the default for some reason. YOU DO NOT DELETE THE OLD DEFAULT

[[e-mail] (damianatorrpm)]

Here the FIX for you dear developers. Reverse commits 1929, 1930 and 1933.

For all poor unity users, you have to download these 3 filed and compile unity from source (http://askubuntu.com/questions/28470/how-do-i-build-unity-from-source) and revert these so called patches. Copy these files into the source dir and revert the patches with patch -F3 -p0 <./$name_of_patch where you need to do that for each of the 3 files.
You will get prompted and have to answer yes to all questions.

[Joel Crane (fuelcell250)]

Ouch, this one hurts on my Netbook. With auto-hide off, the launcher takes up valuable screen real-estate. With auto-hide off, I have to try several times to to invoke the launcher, because I'm using a touchpad mouse the majority of the time.

Changing the default to always show makes perfect sense if new users were having trouble with it, but removing Window Dodge completely doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Unfortunately, I'll be downgrading to Ubuntu 11.10, because the removal of Window Dodge has severely impacted the usability of Ubuntu in a negative way.

[Maxim Kuznetsov (mackuzzz)]

#2, You've said all my thoughts!

In 11.10 Launcher was acting like a gentleman, but now it stays even when I don't want to see it or hides when I need it. And there is no any choice. Scripts are slow and patches are unacceptable for simple users.
The most comfortable shell interface became useless.

[Maxim Kuznetsov (mackuzzz)]

If it's politically incorrect to return this option, can you, dear developers, make a PPA with patch or some script to return it for advanced users?

[Maxim Kuznetsov (mackuzzz)]

And one more thing.
If you, dear developers want me to use autohiding that I hate with all of my heart, make this option stable! Because for now I must to play with mouse for several times, moving it to the left and back before the Launcher desides to show itself :E

[Tsvetko (tsvetko.tsvetkov-deactivatedaccount)]

Unfortunately, removing dodge is a huge setback for small netbook screens. On my 27' monitor I have disabled dodge in Ubuntu 11.10. However, on a netbook screen it is a complete different story...

[Peter Kennes (mgt2000)]

Have a look at this solution:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1967822

[shane (shane-animail)]

It is a workaround, not really a solution though...

On 29 April 2012 09:32, Peter Kennes <email address hidden> wrote:

> Have a look at this solution:
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1967822
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/930148
>
> Title:
> Dodge windows is down but what about making the launcher autohide only
> on maximised apps ?
>
> Status in Ayatana Design:
> Opinion
> Status in Unity:
> Opinion
> Status in “unity” package in Ubuntu:
> Opinion
>
> Bug description:
> I was using dodge windows in unity mainly because it make the launcher
> go out of the way on maximized apps (like Kdenlive who is benefiting a
> lot from unity's capability of making the most space usable).
>
> But I was never hiding the launcher when I use "windowed" apps (like
> firefox on the left and openoffice on the righ part of the screen)
> because it helped me a lot switching with something else rapidly (like
> thunderbird, pidgin, etc)
>
> What I think to be a good third behavior of the launcher is to hide
> itself when one app or more are fullscreen and if they are not, being
> always there.
>
> There is some corner cases like if one app is full screen and the
> focused app is not. But I think this will not bring some crazy bugs
> like dodging windows did in the past.
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/930148/+subscriptions
>

[Isaac Joseph (isaacj87)]

I was disappointed that this feature was removed completely. If anything, it should be kept in CCSM so advanced users can activate it should they want it.

I wrote the tutorial metioned in mgt2000's comment (#149). I noticed there is a lot of demand for 'dodge windows' and after becoming so accustomed to it, having it removed disrupted my workflow greatly. If it could be re-added to Ubuntu 12.10, but tucked neatly away, it would make a lot of users happy.

[shane (shane-animail)]

Alas, nobody from the design team has responded either here on the mailing lists about Dodge so it seems it is gone and forgotten as far as their concerned and all suggestions regarding it are now being ignored completely so it's pretty pointless adding anything else here.

[shane (shane-animail)]

nobody has responded recently I should have said.

[Billy Barnes (webarnes)]

I'm curious about whether any alternatives were tested to see if there was a way to implement dodge that was not confusing. What exactly confused them? What did they do when the launchbar disappeared? I would think most would simply unmaximize the app. Unless they couldn't do that because the window controls disappeared.

Dodge when maximizing, at least, just strikes me as a great feature that deserves some effort to try and communicate it to the user. Perhaps users would figure it out if the animation were different, or if the last few pixels of the launchbar remained visible. I just cannot believe there is no way to free up that space and remove distractions from a maximized app without confusing the user.

In addition, both Mac OS Lion and Windows 8 are pushing similar features (Lion has fullscreen, Windows 8 has an autohiding charm menu). So users coming from other platforms will soon get used to the idea that taskbars/launchbars/docks can be covered or hidden.

[Aleve Sicofante (sicofante)]

Changed to "opinion"?

Will you guys at least explain what that means? Looks pretty insulting to me. We have shown you clearly how wrong you are, from every possible point of view. Yet you can't come with a single reason why this proposal is wrong beyond the poor excuse of NUPUs testing (which isn't even openly documented). Yet you call this "opinion"?

Thanks god this is open source and some rational people out there respond to your finger with code. Here's it: http://admin.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/04/enable-dodge-unity-launcher-ubuntu-12-04/#comment-514487779

[Ego (egogratis)]

After using Ubuntu 12.04 for some time i don't find any real benefit that would be directly connected with removal of Dodge Windows and Unity 3D in Ubuntu 11.10 offered user better experience. I hope at least developers are happy now because they don't have to spend any more time working on the feature?

Always hide mode was never a real option and now sure we can look at launcher all the time on the desktop and the fun thing is that if user uses wallpaper of certain color then the whole launcher turns in some fugly color and when user maximizes program window not only the launcher is still there the fugly color is "fun" to watch too, probably the result of the fact now the developers have more time to work on things that matter the most to the users?

[Danny Adair (danny-adair)]

@Ego - just ignore the sad excuses, set the launcher to auto-hide with minimum sensitivity, and install cairo-dock and be done with it. "Dodge Windows" (a misnomer proving this feature is misunderstood - it's the real "auto-hide") with very fine-grained settings (only hide when active window overlaps etc.) will give you what you want, still have [Super] for bringing up Dash.
Some wasted resources, but you don't have to put up with the humbug launcher behaviour.

[Ego (egogratis)]

Yes i see a lot of user using docks lately and having Launcher in "always hide" mode. It kind of beats the purpose what Unity tried to do and in my opinion did until Ubuntu 12.04.

It did something no other DE offered but now it just offers launcher moved to the left side of the screen and sometimes with wallpaper combination fugly colors too (yikes).

[Ego (egogratis)]

Bring back the Dodge Windows by default please. :D

[Carlos Ravelo (gandazgul)]

Put back the option, just don't set it as default and don't expose it on the system settings but leave it as an option in the compiz settings so that advanced users who are not confused by it can re-enable it. This is a highly annoying regression.

[[e-mail] (damianatorrpm)]

+1 for Carlos

2012/10/19 Carlos Ravelo <email address hidden>:
> Put back the option, just don't set it as default and don't expose it on
> the system settings but leave it as an option in the compiz settings so
> that advanced users who are not confused by it can re-enable it. This is
> a highly annoying regression.
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/930148
>
> Title:
> Dodge windows is down but what about making the launcher autohide only
> on maximised apps ?
>
> Status in Ayatana Design:
> Opinion
> Status in Unity:
> Opinion
> Status in “unity” package in Ubuntu:
> Opinion
>
> Bug description:
> I was using dodge windows in unity mainly because it make the launcher
> go out of the way on maximized apps (like Kdenlive who is benefiting a
> lot from unity's capability of making the most space usable).
>
> But I was never hiding the launcher when I use "windowed" apps (like
> firefox on the left and openoffice on the righ part of the screen)
> because it helped me a lot switching with something else rapidly (like
> thunderbird, pidgin, etc)
>
> What I think to be a good third behavior of the launcher is to hide
> itself when one app or more are fullscreen and if they are not, being
> always there.
>
> There is some corner cases like if one app is full screen and the
> focused app is not. But I think this will not bring some crazy bugs
> like dodging windows did in the past.
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/930148/+subscriptions

[Nod Toung (nodtoung)]

The "Dodge Windows" hide mode is very useful for me. You Canonical guys please revert this feature back again. Don't make mistake.

[papukaija (papukaija)]

Bug statuses shouldn't be changes without an explanation. So can someone explain why this bug is marked as opinion? Otherwise I might follow the guidelines and just reopen this bug...

[Ego (egogratis)]

Now when you will have your own display server/compositor, Unity rewritten in Qt/QML, and more control on the display stack in general to make it work... I think now it's the time to push back code snippet that will enable Dodge Windows again.

[Ubuntu Foundations Team Bug Bot (crichton)]

The attachment "1933_1932.diff" seems to be a patch. If it isn't, please remove the "patch" flag from the attachment, remove the "patch" tag, and if you are a member of the ~ubuntu-reviewers, unsubscribe the team.

[This is an automated message performed by a Launchpad user owned by ~brian-murray, for any issues please contact him.]