Misleading and deceptive information regarding Dell & Ubuntu certification

[Ed Epstein]

My friend is unfortunately the owner of a multi-thousand dollar door stop from Dell. I recommended Dell to him because of its long relationship with Ubuntu, and that Ubuntu certifies specific Dell models to run Ubuntu on them.

Glancing over the certification (https://certification.ubuntu.com/hardware/201611-25214/4), it would seem Ubuntu is supported. However, those disclaimers are not nearly big enough, or contain strong enough language. There is no “maybe” about it, stock Ubuntu cannot be installed on a Mobile Precision M7220. The difference between pre-install systems and standard images does not inform the user of the nasty truth:

Dell will never allow you, or anyone else, to download the Ubuntu Recovery Image for a 7720, unless you purchased the unit with Ubuntu pre-installed, and have a warranty.

Considering that it’s impossible to put Ubuntu on the 7720, I urge the community to change the wording of these certifications, and STRONGLY warn people NOT TO PURCHASE REFURBISHED DELL HARDWARE if they wish to run Ubuntu. You need to very emphatically state that ONLY pre-installs will ever work.

Moreover, this whole situation violates the principles of open source software in the first place. Dell hoards the knowledge and refuses to share any information about drivers, kernel parameters, software settings, etc.

We’ve been told that it will never be possible to Ubuntu to work with this specific 7720, even though it is certified. That is because of policy, not capability.

Ubuntu should revisit its relationship with Dell, and IMHO, strongly urge Dell to not lie and misrepresent its support of Ubuntu on its hardware, and all certification pages for Dell equipment on Ubuntu’s site should be updated to reflect the truth of Dell’s policies.

Specifically, that if you buy anything certified for Ubuntu, but it comes bundled with Windows 10, that you’re vendor locked into Windows 10.

I’m sure it would come to no surprise to the people here, that I would cut off my genitalia with a rusty salt encrusted spork, before running Microsoft on our hardware :wink:

******* UPDATE AFTER CONVERSATION WITH DELL CORPORATE **************

I just finished a lengthy conversation with Dell Corporate. I’ve been informed that Dell no longer supports the Mobile Precision line entirely with respect to either Ubuntu or Redhat. It’s not possible to be sold a Precision 7720 with Ubuntu pre-installed at this time, and neither is it possible to modify or update a warranty or service tag to allow access to the Ubuntu recovery image. That recovery image is effectively locked up behind a service tag “password”, and it’s not certain that a service tag for a Ubuntu pre-install can still download it.

Considering that Dell officially no longer supports Ubuntu/Redhat on the entire Precision line, and utterly refuses to work with the open source community in good faith by providing downloads for Linux drivers with additional installation information, it is wholly inaccurate for Ubuntu to have those certification pages up. They’re no longer reflective of the reality a tech faces when trying to install Ubuntu on Precision laptops.

Ubuntu really should revisit its relationship with Dell, and especially should reconsider the logic of certifying hardware that does not have the drivers readily available for download, or publicly published. The difference between “Standard” and “Pre-install” should be eliminated, and “Pre-install” should never receive certification.

*******************

I was advised to cross post this here for a "signal boost". Obviously we are extremely furious and despondent we cannot run Linux on this very expensive hardware. Not only that, but you should refuse certification, or heavily caution it, for companies like Dell that openly say they will void an onsite hardware warranty if Ubuntu is on the laptop. That is Grade-A Bullshit. If they're truly certified for Ubuntu, then why do they get to vendor lock whatever software it is bundled with?

Also, anybody reading this that has access to the Ubuntu recovery image for the 7720 please let me know. I'm willing to install it in a month or two when I have access to the hardware again, and I will take the liability of publishing it far and wide on the Internet so that 7720 owners can indeed run Ubuntu.

[Jeff Lane  (bladernr)]

Changed this to ubuntu-certification it as nothing to do with website code.
Also triaged as "Opinion" for now.

[Chris Wayne (cwayne)]

Hi Ed,

First of all I'd like to profusely apologize for all of this! If you can help answer some questions I should be able to get a better idea of what exactly's going on. Can you please let me know:

1) Which version of stock Ubuntu were you trying to install? If it's 16.04, I'd be curious to see if 18.04 would work (lots of times with pre-installed images like this, the fixes/tweaks required by the hardware are pushed upstream in later versions).
2) What is the exact error/issue you're seeing when trying to install stock ubuntu? i.e. does the install work but the system fails to boot?
3) Is the configuration you're trying the same as listed in the certification link? i.e. is it the same nvidia card listed there?

Again, I'm really sorry you've gone through this.

Thanks
Chris

[Ed Epstein (eepstein)]

Hi Chris,

Thank you for the reply.

1) It was 18.04
2) During the install process there is a reboot. It would often hang here, and sometimes after 5 minutes or so, it would reset itself. After initial installation, it would sometimes hang at the login screen, but 90% of the time would hang within 60 seconds of hitting the desktop. Pressing the "activities" keys button would load the icons for the programs. After clicking any program it would crash halfway through the animation to fade out the icons.
3) I had to look at the list again. Other than AMD or NVidia I wasn't under the impression there was a great amount of differentiation in the 7720. CPU and chipset does look the same. However, I believe this 7720 has a Quadro P4000 Mobile instead of the P3000.

I appreciate your guys help. I can't stand leaving this equipment on Windows 10.

Namaste,

Ed Epstein III

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Wayne" <email address hidden>
To: <email address hidden>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 4:34:05 PM
Subject: [Bug 1812453] Re: Misleading and deceptive information regarding Dell & Ubuntu certification

Hi Ed,

First of all I'd like to profusely apologize for all of this! If you
can help answer some questions I should be able to get a better idea of
what exactly's going on. Can you please let me know:

1) Which version of stock Ubuntu were you trying to install? If it's 16.04, I'd be curious to see if 18.04 would work (lots of times with pre-installed images like this, the fixes/tweaks required by the hardware are pushed upstream in later versions).
2) What is the exact error/issue you're seeing when trying to install stock ubuntu? i.e. does the install work but the system fails to boot?
3) Is the configuration you're trying the same as listed in the certification link? i.e. is it the same nvidia card listed there?

Again, I'm really sorry you've gone through this.

Thanks
Chris

--
You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
report.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1812453

Title:
  Misleading and deceptive information regarding Dell & Ubuntu
  certification

Status in Ubuntu-Certification:
  Opinion

Bug description:
  My friend is unfortunately the owner of a multi-thousand dollar door
  stop from Dell. I recommended Dell to him because of its long
  relationship with Ubuntu, and that Ubuntu certifies specific Dell
  models to run Ubuntu on them.

  Glancing over the certification
  (https://certification.ubuntu.com/hardware/201611-25214/4), it would
  seem Ubuntu is supported. However, those disclaimers are not nearly
  big enough, or contain strong enough language. There is no “maybe”
  about it, stock Ubuntu cannot be installed on a Mobile Precision
  M7220. The difference between pre-install systems and standard images
  does not inform the user of the nasty truth:

  Dell will never allow you, or anyone else, to download the Ubuntu
  Recovery Image for a 7720, unless you purchased the unit with Ubuntu
  pre-installed, and have a warranty.

  Considering that it’s impossible to put Ubuntu on the 7720, I urge the
  community to change the wording of these certifications, and STRONGLY
  warn peopl...

[Chris Wayne (cwayne)]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the quick reply! While we're looking into this, I've got just a few more questions :) While trying to install stock 18.04, did you try and install the nvidia proprietary drivers? If not, when you get access to the machine, could you try and run 'apt install nvidia-390' and see if that helps?

Thanks
Chris

[Ed Epstein (eepstein)]

Hi Chris,

It will be a few weeks before I can get back to the machine. I flew out there just to set Ubuntu up in two or three days, thinking it would be a breeze.

I believe I need to put it in single user mode and catch it before it starts the Window Manager right? Window Managers are still new to me, I ran headless for the first 10 years I used Linux :)

Namaste,

Ed Epstein III

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bug 1812453" <email address hidden>
To: <email address hidden>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 6:02:53 PM
Subject: [Bug 1812453] Re: Misleading and deceptive information regarding Dell & Ubuntu certification

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the quick reply! While we're looking into this, I've got
just a few more questions :) While trying to install stock 18.04, did
you try and install the nvidia proprietary drivers? If not, when you
get access to the machine, could you try and run 'apt install
nvidia-390' and see if that helps?

Thanks
Chris

--
You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
report.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1812453

Title:
  Misleading and deceptive information regarding Dell & Ubuntu
  certification

Status in Ubuntu-Certification:
  Opinion

Bug description:
  My friend is unfortunately the owner of a multi-thousand dollar door
  stop from Dell. I recommended Dell to him because of its long
  relationship with Ubuntu, and that Ubuntu certifies specific Dell
  models to run Ubuntu on them.

  Glancing over the certification
  (https://certification.ubuntu.com/hardware/201611-25214/4), it would
  seem Ubuntu is supported. However, those disclaimers are not nearly
  big enough, or contain strong enough language. There is no “maybe”
  about it, stock Ubuntu cannot be installed on a Mobile Precision
  M7220. The difference between pre-install systems and standard images
  does not inform the user of the nasty truth:

  Dell will never allow you, or anyone else, to download the Ubuntu
  Recovery Image for a 7720, unless you purchased the unit with Ubuntu
  pre-installed, and have a warranty.

  Considering that it’s impossible to put Ubuntu on the 7720, I urge the
  community to change the wording of these certifications, and STRONGLY
  warn people NOT TO PURCHASE REFURBISHED DELL HARDWARE if they wish to
  run Ubuntu. You need to very emphatically state that ONLY pre-installs
  will ever work.

  Moreover, this whole situation violates the principles of open source
  software in the first place. Dell hoards the knowledge and refuses to
  share any information about drivers, kernel parameters, software
  settings, etc.

  We’ve been told that it will never be possible to Ubuntu to work with
  this specific 7720, even though it is certified. That is because of
  policy, not capability.

  Ubuntu should revisit its relationship with Dell, and IMHO, strongly
  urge Dell to not lie and misrepresent its support of Ubuntu on its
  hardware, and all certification pages for Dell equipment on Ubuntu’s
  site should be updated to reflect the truth of Dell’s policies.

  Specifically, that if you buy anything certified for Ubuntu, but it
  comes bundled with Windows 10, that you’re vendor locked into...

[Chris Wayne (cwayne)]

Hi there Ed,

I had somebody on my team try and install stock Ubuntu 18.04.1 was able to be installed/used while 18.04 had issues (slightly different from what you'd described, but issues nonetheless). Depending on when you get access to the machine again, I'd try either 18.04.1 (available now) or 18.04.2 (scheduled to be released soon). Please do note that the configs are slightly different, as our system here has the P3000 nvidia card, while you indicated yours had P4000, though I'd hope 18.04.1 will work regardless. Again, sorry for all this trouble! If you have any other questions or concerns, don't hesitate to reach out to me directly at <email address hidden> and I'll do what I can to help remedy this.

Thanks again for your patience on this!
Chris

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

Thanks for the clear report, Ed, I will make sure this is seen by the
team at Canonical which works with Dell.

By and large, Dell do a very good job working with Ubuntu and Canonical.
I know that there is a rising appetite for first-class Ubuntu support on
workstations for engineering, so this is a surprise. I'm unaware of the
particular circumstances of this model but will forward your commentary
to the relevant teams.

Mark