french special rules for purchasing without VAT in European Union

[Kellogs]

Dear all,

This is OpenERP 6.03 with french accounting rules.

Buying in the European Union without VAT is very usual.
French accounting rules require that you pay VAT and then refund VAT automatically.
Of course, this is the same as paying WITHOUT VAT, but you are required to do that for statistical reasons.

Companies not doing it are eligible for a 5% fine on VAT, which is huge and would make OpenERP illegal.

An example of purchasing goods without VAT (19,6%) from an accounting course:

D 607 Purches goods 1000
D 44566 Etat - TVA déductible 196
C 401 Suppliers 1000
C 4452 Etat - TVA due intracommunautaire 196

I don't know how to code the fiscal rule and anyway it should be applied by defaut in OpenERP French localisation.
The French module allow to export without VAT but not import wihout VAT.

I tried to apply the VAT rules twice, but it is impossible as the rules apply, one on Debit the other on Credit.

What would be the solution and how can it be applied to OpenERP?

[Dominique Chabord (dominique-chabord)]

Hello,
can you provide a reference to the official document ?
Why is 19.6 chosen in your example since it is not the true rate used by the vendor ?
thank you

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

No I don't know where to find official documents.
If you google in French "Achat intracommunautaire HT" (buying from the EU without taxes) you will find many courses.

Examples:
* www.eguens.com/v2/comptabilite/cours/cours-comptabilite.php (accounting course)
* http://www.compta-online.com/tva-intracommunauraire-formulaire-ca12-t31034
* http://www.oec-paris.fr/opendoc.php?iddoc=728

Please ask confirmation to any French accountant, this is the basic act.

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

From the lates document, page 15:

Cas habituel : Achat par une société française à une société
allemande de marchandises qui lui sont livrées en France :
Acquisition intracommunautaire, autoliquidation de la TVA

=
Usual case : a French company purchasing goods from a German company,
with delivery in France:
"Acquisition intracommunautaire" (=buying from the EU) + autoliquidation de la TVA (payment and refund of VAT).

Payment and refund is written in this document.

Now, form my knowledge, here is how it is performed:

D 607 Purches goods 1000
D 44566 Etat - TVA déductible 196
C 401 Suppliers 1000
C 4452 Etat - TVA due intracommunautaire 196

This VAT operation is 'blank' and only for statistical purposes, but you are obliged.
The data is collected and analysed against customs data.
Here is why!

Also, companies not complying are eligible for a 5% fine.

[Dominique Chabord (dominique-chabord)]

hello,

thank you for these pointers which are both very interesting.
The first one illustrates clearly your point, but no reference to the law
The two others are interesting but off-topic, or am I missing the point ?
regards

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

I am not aware of legal sources for accounting (government or text laws) because I am not a profesionnal accountant.
Would you prefer me to photocopy a page of an accounting book and publish it in attachement?

I am worried that all OpenERP accounting users may be impacted and I would prefer the bug/feature request to be acknowledged very quickly.

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

Sorry for double posting.

I think a possible solution would be to create a special computed tax with a little bit of code
OR create a tax with two child taxes, but I really don't know how it would work.

For information, I tried without success.

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

http://mister.compta.free.fr/Syntheses/Le%20coin%20des%20BAC/La%20comptabilisation%20des%20factures%20d%27achat%20intracommunautaire.pdf

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

Here is an official source of information:
http://www.cerpeg.ac-versailles.fr/ressdiscipl/compta/tva.htm#E3

Quoting:

Acquisitions intra-communautaires : Les acquisitions intra-communautaires nécessitent un traitement comptable particulier par rapport aux achats à l’importation sur le plan de la TVA (à condition que l’entreprise remplisse les conditions d’application de la TVA intra-communautaire, c’est à dire qu’elle ait fourni son immatriculation communautaire). Comme à l’importation, il n’y a pas de TVA portée sur la facture. Mais, contrairement à l’importation, les achats ne font pas l’objet d’un dédouanement et d’application de la TVA à ce moment. La TVA sera déclarée par l’entreprise et acquittée lors de la déclaration mensuelle de TVA (tout en étant également déduite - sauf exception) selon les règles suivantes concernant la date d’exigibilité de la TVA :

- à la date de la livraison si la facture la précède
- à la date de la facture si elle arrive entre la livraison et le 15 du mois suivant
- au 15 du mois suivant la livraison si la facture n’est pas encore arrivée

La comptabilisation de la TVA due se fait obligatoirement par le crédit d’un compte spécifique : 4452 TVA due intracommunautaire.

Exemple : le 12/10 réception de marchandises provenant d’un fournisseur allemand. Le 15/10 réception de la facture correspondante pour 12 000 € (montant hors taxe).
Calcul de la TVA française correspondante (exigible et déductible) : 12 000 x 19.6 % = 2 352 €.

Comptabilisation le 15/10 à réception de la facture :

D 607(.)2 Achat marchandises 12 000,00
D 445662 TVA Déd. s/B.S. 2 352,00

D 401(.)2 Frs Intracom… 12 000,00
C 4452 TVA Due Intracom... 2 352,00

************

As a consequence of this bug, all FISCAL DECLARATION MADE WITH OPENERP IN FRANCE when buying from the European Union are probably FALSE. As a consequence, users are eligible for a 5% fine.

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

Le dimanche 16 octobre 2011 à 20:10 +0300, P. Christeas a écrit :
> A stupid question: have you tried to have 2 VAT taxes, one positive
> (the
> normal one) and one with a negative factor (like "VAT refund") ? Then,
> let the
> negative VAT go to the appropriate credit account (C 4452, isn't it)?

I tried without success to create a single tax
with two child taxes, did not work:
http://www.openerp.com/forum/post93150.html#p93150

I will try your solution, might work. Anyway, the question is to include
a fix by default into OpenERP French 6.1. And this is quite urgent even
if this is an old and historical bug. Here this is not a question of
stock, HR or any feature, this is a question of public law. So anyone
with a working solution, please describe in details.

Kind regards,

[Fabien (Open ERP) (fp-tinyerp)]

Just a note to say that it's exactly the same than in Belgium and it's perfectly implemented in l10n_be, you can reuse taxes and fiscal position from l10n_be for a good implementation. (you just have to change alittle bit the account to use.)

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

Le samedi 22 octobre 2011 à 07:13 +0000, Fabien (Open ERP) a écrit :
> Just a note to say that it's exactly the same than in Belgium and it's
> perfectly implemented in l10n_be, you can reuse taxes and fiscal
> position from l10n_be for a good implementation. (you just have to
> change alittle bit the account to use.)

Thanks! I will have a look at it today. It is the last piece missing for
a working accounting.

Bye!

[Amit Parik (amit-parik)]

Hello,

I totally agree with comment#10 of Fabien, for French accounting VAT l10n_be module are working fine.

And according to comment#11, I am closing this issue.

Thanks

[Numérigraphe (numerigraphe)]

I suppose it should be implemented in l10n_fr too, so that users benefit from it without having to search in foreign l10n modules.

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

Here is an example of French users complaning:
http://forum.openerp.com/forum/post117537.html

This bug is not invalid or an opinion, it is really compulsory by French law to "autoliquidate VAT".
So I am flagging this as "Feature request" to allow the community to collaborate on a solution and at least identify the weakness.

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

Flagging as "Confirmed" as the French accounting should allow this feature by default.

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

Could you eleborate why this is not a bug or a feature request, as French law states:

http://www.entreprise-europe-sud-ouest.fr/sfx/assets/documents/uploaded/general/Autoliquidation%20de%20la%20TVA.pdf

explains:

**********************
Le principe d'autoliquidation de la TVA est généralisé et applicable
en France depuis le 1er septembre 2006.
Il est fondé sur les textes réglementaires français suivants :
− L'article 94 de la Loi de finances rectificative pour 2005 (N°
2005-1720 du 30 décembre 2005)
− L'article 283-1 du Code Général des Impôts (CGI)
− Le Bulletin Officiel des Impôts 3 A-9-06 N° 105 du
23 juin 2006
Les règles d'autoliquidation concernent toute entreprise identifiée à la
TVA en France (y compris celle qui n'y est pas établie mais qui détient
un N° de TVA intracommunautaire français) qui achète un bien auprès
d'un fournisseur non établi en France ou reçoit une prestation de
service d'un prestataire non établi en France.
****************

Code Général des Impôts (CGI)
http://droit-finances.commentcamarche.net/legifrance/74-code-general-des-impots/264314/article-283

****************
Toutefois, lorsque la livraison de biens ou la prestation de services est effectuée par un assujetti établi hors de France, la taxe est acquittée par l'acquéreur, le destinataire ou le preneur qui dispose d'un numéro d'identification à la taxe sur la valeur ajoutée en France. Le montant dû est identifié sur la déclaration mentionnée à l'article 287.
****************

So why are you closing this issue without notice or information?
Does it apply to a third party module and which module?

IMHO, this issue should stay open.

Kind regards,
Jean-Michel

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

Unless you provide a legal reason to hide this information from the community, I am reopening this issue.

Please keep this issue open until an OpenERP module provides a solution. Today there is no standard way to autoliquidate VAT in French OpenERP settings and no way to print a proper tax report with correct amounts.

Maybe people can contact your company and pay for service, but this is not what I would call a suitable solution.

So please keep this issue open and allow the community to provide a solution. I am sure it can be done within a resonable time frame. So many people are waiting for this feature that it WILL NOT take a long time.

[Kellogs (jm-poure)]

OK, this bug cannot be changed and is locked, this is unreal.

[Michel-Ekimia (michel.ekimia)]

Well, it seems to be available now as a default in v7