Ayatana-Scrollbar-Thumb should appear INSIDE unmaximized-windows

[nick rundy]

It is frustrating, aggravating, and a chore trying to get the mouse to "grab" the Ayatana-Scrollbar-Thumb in its current implementation. The problem is exacerbated in unmaximized-windows by placing the Thumb outside the window. The design of the Ayatana-Scrollbar-Thumb desperately needs this improvement:

--the Thumb should ALWAYS appear inside the window, whether the window is maximized or unmaximized. It is enormously frustrating to have the Thumb appear outside an unmaximized-window. It makes it very hard to "grab" onto and there is no good reason to place it outside the window, especially considering that the Thumb is an ephemeral item.

ProblemType: Bug
DistroRelease: Ubuntu 11.10
Package: gnome-session-bin 3.2.0-0ubuntu3
ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 3.0.0-12.20-generic 3.0.4
Uname: Linux 3.0.0-12-generic i686
ApportVersion: 1.23-0ubuntu2
Architecture: i386
Date: Sat Oct 8 08:58:33 2011
ExecutablePath: /usr/bin/gnome-session
InstallationMedia: Ubuntu 11.10 "Oneiric Ocelot" - Beta i386 (20110901)
ProcEnviron:
 PATH=(custom, no user)
 LANG=en_US.UTF-8
 SHELL=/bin/bash
SourcePackage: gnome-session
UpgradeStatus: Upgraded to oneiric on 2011-10-06 (1 days ago)

[Launchpad Janitor (janitor)]

Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users.

[Jonathan Meek (shroudedcloud)]

I can give you one good reason to have it outside the window: I was rating songs in Rhythmbox the other day, maximized. EVERY time I went to rate a song, the thumb would appear OVER the fifth star and I would have to wait for it to time out. At least if I were to un-maximize and move the window far enough form the edge, the thumb would not hinder my working with content, which is, I'm sure, the desired intent.

[Andrea Cimitan (cimi)]

Congrats! You have just discovered why it stays outside :-)

[nick rundy (nrundy)]

@Jonathan Meek,

this may turn out to be an important reason to not put the Thumb on the inside. However, could you please post another comment answering the following question: was the Thumb appearing because you were in proximity of the scrollbar or was your mouse actually touching/on top of the Thumb (i.e., when the Thumb appeared, could you immediately click and gain control of the Thumb)?

This bug (870714) is actually IMHO the most important one for improving usability of the scrollbar: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/overlay-scrollbar/+bug/870714

If the Thumb was appearing even though it wasn't immediately clickable (i.e., the mouse was not actually touching the Thumb), then fixing bug 870714 would solve the issue you were facing even while using a maximized window. But even if the Thumb is kept outside the window on Unmaximized windows, fixing bug 870714 would still be a huge improvement because the Thumb would not appear until it is immediately clickable. So the natural instinct by users would be to just keep moving towards the scrollbar until the Thumb appears, whether inside or outside. When the Thumb appears, the user knows he/she can immediately click to "grab" it.

[Jonathan Meek (shroudedcloud)]

A little of column A, a little of B. You have to understand, there is a design to all these things. There's a reason for it appearing. Even if you do not agree with it. The reason it appears is there to tell people that option is there. If Maximized, it does appear over content, but there isn't an easier way of doing it so it fades out.

In this particular case, yes, the thumb WAS immediately clickable. If you go with your proposed "fix" it would remove some usability. Think of it this way: should a button NOT be shown because it's not immediately clickable? Because I'm not in the button's area? The overlay scrollbars are designed primarily for the majority of users that find themselves with touchpads with two-finger scrolling and mouses with scroll wheels. What you propose is a step backward.

Of course, this is my opinion, but this-- and your other bug-- should be marked as invalid. However, as this is obviously a personal disagreement and I have no input into the actual development or design of overlay scrollbars, I'll leave it to you. ;)

[nick rundy (nrundy)]

"Think of it this way: should a button NOT be shown because it's not immediately clickable? "

Well . . . in this context . . . yes! Afterall, this is the approach that ubuntu developers took with the Global/Application Menu. The current design of the scrollbar makes it difficult to gain control over the Thumb. Appearance of the Thumb coinciding with clickability would address this issue.

I disagree with you that it is a valid/useful reason for the Thumb appearing even when not clickable solely "to tell people that option is there." This is a case where the usability is hurt too much just "to tell people that option is there." Therefore, people will just have to learn that the Thumb only appears when clickable. Besides, once users learn that, the necessity of communicating that the option is there is removed. Again, same thing with the Global/Application Menu.

Considering the problem you faced with Rhythmbox, it's likely not appropriate to put the Thumb inside unmaximized windows. I'm glad you left your experience cause I have not experienced the problem you faced so was not aware of it. And I do hate it when something pops up over what I'm trying to do, so I share your grievance. However, I still think bug 870714 would be a very useful improvement.

[Jonathan Meek (shroudedcloud)]

"this is the approach that ubuntu developers took with the Global/Application Menu."

Still largely experimental/ design is still being worked on. And, part of the reason it is designed to be hidden is to de-emephasize over-reliance on menus. Not a vaild point.

Though, that last point of mine is valid: the overlays are meant to de-emphasize the thumb. (In a way, don't take this statement too literally. )

How is usability hurt? Is it not practice for you to touch with pointer or finger whatever you're interacting with? What about the semi-hidden nature of the thumb suggests otherwise? NOTHING I can think of in computer design says that something appearing should coincide with it being clickable or even usable. Personal preference is not necessarily proper design. Unless there is a truly valid reason why it should never be there unless it is clickable, you really should mark this invalid.