Launchpad font size is too small

[Christopher Armstrong]

Several people are reporting Launchpad's base font size (8.5pt) as being too small.

First was Christopher Armstrong: "Super, super small. I have a Gazelle laptop from System 76, which has a 1280x800 monitor. I have to C-+ every time I visit a LP beta page so my eyes don't strain, with Firefox on Edgy."

(See also bug 87471, about the grey color.)

[Matthew Paul Thomas (mpt)]

The current size exactly matches the specification (see <https://launchpad.canonical.com/OneZeroBugPage> for example), which was decided by Mark and Usman in August.

http://informationarchitects.jp/100e2r?v=4

[Christopher Armstrong (radix)]

I humbly disagree with the decision :)

It may be the combination of the light color with the tiny font that makes it particularly straining to me. I understand the desire to look like all the cool web 2.0 sites with their grey-on-white, tiny fonts, but I think even a lot of those guys have figured out that readable fonts are better. :-)

[James Troup (elmo)]

I second the disagreement, possibly less humbly. The fonts are way too small on my laptop too (HP Pavilion ZT3000, for reference, only 1280x800).

[Matthew Paul Thomas (mpt)]

I raised this issue with Mark, and he said he wants to stick with the current size for now.

[David Allouche (ddaa)]

It's too small anyway. Especially since Launchpad does use "smaller" in a lot of places. One get decent usability by zooming in the browser font size one notch.

[Alex Muntada (alex.muntada)]

Using small sizes like these of beta makes polls almost unreadable in my 1680x1050 screen. Too bad for usability :(

[Andrew Ash (ash211)]

I personally think that the size of the comment box is worse. Attached is a screenshot showing the difference on my system (1280x800) of how much smaller the comment box's text is than the actual comments on a bug. I would prefer that the two sizes are equal, at least, for consistency. Then we can start talking about if they're too small or not :)

[Martin Albisetti (beuno)]

I'm having a lot of problem with font sizes too.
Another problem is the "light grey" color of the text, makes it VERY hard to read on my laptop.
It goes against basic usability guidelines.

[Martin Albisetti (beuno)]

Sorry to repeat the comment, but I tried translating, and there is no way I can work with the font size, I have to size it up at least twice to get a "workable" font size.

[Freddy Martinez (freddymartinez9)]

Martin, the font color problem has been registered as a bug. I wish I had
the bug number offhand.

On 3/1/07, Martin Albisetti <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> Sorry to repeat the comment, but I tried translating, and there is no
> way I can work with the font size, I have to size it up at least twice
> to get a "workable" font size.
>
> --
> The beta's font size is too small
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/82344
>

--
Freddy Martinez
Kubuntu. Linux for human beings.
www.chi.ubuntu-us.org
</message>

[Chris Jones (cmsj)]

While this may well be a valid bug, it might be worth noting that (at least with firefox) you can set a minimum font size pages are rendered with. For large resolution displays this is well worth setting to a sane value (10pt perhaps)
fwiw, with my 1024x768 resolution, the fonts are a bit too big.

[Kurt von Finck (mneptok)]

Chris Jones wrote:

> fwiw, with my 1024x768 resolution, the fonts are a bit too big.

Font too small, font too big.

If someone chimes in with "just right" I think we get 3 bears.

./k

[Martin Albisetti (beuno)]

I'm going to go ahead and stop complaining with unsubstanciated "the font's too small", and post a small extract of THE web usability book:
http://www.amazon.com/Prioritizing-Usability-VOICES-Jakob-Nielsen/dp/0321350316/ref=sr_1_1/102-7393080-0424113?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172888042&sr=8-1

It basically says that the minimum acceptable text size for web is 10 points. And that is the absolute minimum. Considering launchpad is used heavily for reading text, I think 11-12 is probably the best fit.

>Martin, the font color problem has been registered as a bug. I wish I had
>the bug number offhand.

I can't find the bug, so I'm going to go ahead and file that one too. The contrast of the text is as important as it's size.

I'm sorry to be such a pain with this issue, but it's a critical part of any user interface.

[jz (jz+)]

Yes I have to agree I've become quite accustomed to pressing [Ctrl] + [+] a few times to make the beta legible... That's not to say that it isn't overall visually more appealing or easier to use but a balance must be struck between aesthetics and usability.

Font sizing as well as contrast (e.g. https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-support-tracker/+bug/43231) go a long way to making the overall experience of using Launchpad less strenuous.

[Leandro Gómez (leogg)]

I think the font type is an issue too, specially when using Rosetta, i.e. when the 'l' and the 't' are used together; 'all' and 'alt' both look similar to me.

[Duncan Lithgow (duncan-lithgow)]

I agree that font size 10 is an obsolute minimum. Please post a link to Mark's justification for the small size - otherwise I think the community should be heard on this one.

[Marco Rodrigues (gothicx)]

I agree! The font must be increased a little more :) Example, for translations
is difficult to read phrases..

[Lucas Arruda (lucasarruda)]

For me, most os the fonts are readable. But not all of them.

Some of them are a bit blur, specially the smallest ones.

There as some fonts that are almost unreadable and should
increased in size ou changed in font type.

--
Lucas Arruda
lucasarruda.com

[Soul-Sing (soulzing)]

the font size has to be at least size 10 in my opinion. the l and t and i are too similar...(for example)

[Sam Cater (wraund-deactivatedaccount)]

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:16:19 -0000
leoquant <email address hidden> wrote:

> the font size has to be at least size 10 in my opinion. the l and t
> and i are too similar...(for example)
>
I agree, the font size should be bigger, l and I are too easy to confuse

[Jeremy Visser (jeremy-visser)]

On 3/25/07, Sam Cater <email address hidden> wrote:
> I agree, the font size should be bigger, l and I are too easy to confuse

I just went and zoomed in on your example, and the only difference
between the two was that the second one was one subpixel larger on
each side.

[Sam Cater (wraund-deactivatedaccount)]

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:33:49 -0000
Jeremy Visser <email address hidden> wrote:

> On 3/25/07, Sam Cater <email address hidden> wrote:
> > I agree, the font size should be bigger, l and I are too easy to
> > confuse
>
> I just went and zoomed in on your example, and the only difference
> between the two was that the second one was one subpixel larger on
> each side.
>
exactly. easy to confuse. :P

[Nemes Ioan Sorin (nemes-sorin)]

Sorry Matthew Paul Thomas

but this is not a kind of response -> "The current size exactly matches the specification (see <https://launchpad.canonical.com/OneZeroBugPage> for example), which was decided by Mark and Usman in August.

http://informationarchitects.jp/100e2r?v=4";

..and I don't think that must be the way.
but.. anyway if Mark like this size and font type - a whole planet can't change that. Nielsen is not important here - hes not Ubuntu / Launchpad founder - you get it guys ?.

In conclusion - please someone close this topic

with respect,

Sorin

[Benjamin Mako Hill (mako)]

The font sizes are a bit small but I don't find them offensively small.

[Bruno (bruno666-666)]

I always learn to my students that it's a non-sense to define font size in points (or other metric units) for a screen display. Font sizes should always be in %, ems or pixels.

[Jerome Lacoste (jerome-lacoste)]

See also the discussion on http://lwn.net/Articles/228871/

I agree. This site is one of the rare sites I usually browse that is unreadable for me on my laptops (1280x1024 or 1600x9x0)

[Sitsofe Wheeler (sitsofe)]

I too find the font sizes too small. The areas where it actually hurts to read the type are the sidebar and the comment box. I think the comment box is made extra painful due to the choice of light grey text colour.

Without doubt the new launchpad site looks modern and edgy but a (non default) option for "baggy pants web 2.0 large fonts" (in a similar fashion to the font sizer at the bottom of http://www.wired.com/ ) would be much appreciated.

Here's a link where Jakob Neilson mentions that legibility is one of the top problems on the web: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/designmistakes.html (although this is more of a rant against old IEs inability to scale up fonts)
Here's the W3C advice on font sizes: http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size

[Paul Sladen (sladen)]

Small grey text (=reduced intensity) at reduced font size (=reduced character footprint). Launchpad 1.0 is painful to use on a ThinkPad here.

If the default font-size is Mark's call, could we have a preference/method "gimme normal fonts, mmkay?" to drop the overridden 'color:' and 'font-size:' CSS clauses from the 'body{}' and 'input{}'?

Sure it looks beautiful, and I love being able to _see_ 50+ lines on a 768 pixel high screen. But _reading_ those 50+ lines requires increasing the browser font-size.

[Paul Sladen (sladen)]

Note: mpt reckons the status quo is s/80%/71%/. ...Which is even worse. (0.71^2 = 0.50 of the Em area of normal-size text).

[Bubba Siggler (bud3)]

Mark I am the least of one to say what you want. I don't have a laptop to verify what they have to look at to contribute to GNU std. You know what these guys and gals have to look at to perform the skill's they need. I do know this from experience with great tools one can perform even greater work.

I did not Google it or wiki it. They have the reports

Mark I Love Ya Man. but some time you might have to go to the janitor to get an answer.

Bubba

[Adi Roiban (adiroiban)]

I can also report that fontsize are way too small. it is unreadable.

[Michel Pelletier (pelletier-michel)]

I use 1.25x reading glasses to work with LP. The font size in combination with the light contrast is very difficult to see.

[Matthew Paul Thomas (mpt)]

Fixed in RF 4534.

[Martin Pool (mbp)]

On 7/16/07, Matthew Paul Thomas <email address hidden> wrote:
> Fixed in RF 4534.
>
> ** Changed in: launchpad (upstream)
> Status: In Progress => Fix Committed

That looks really good on edge. The thanks of a grateful nation, etc...

--
Martin

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

> That looks really good on edge. The thanks of a grateful nation, etc...
>
I don't see the fixed gutterless page sides on Edge - has this actually
landed there?

[Matthew Paul Thomas (mpt)]

No, it is not landed on edge (or on beta), because they have not been updated recently. It is landed on demo and on staging.

[Matthew Paul Thomas (mpt)]

This fix has been released in Launchpad 1.1.7. The base font size has now changed from 8.5pt (11.3px at 96dpi) to 10pt (13.3px at 96 dpi). This is still not the preferred size as set in your browser's preferences, but it is 18% taller than it was before.

I have also changed Launchpad from using a specified list of typefaces to just "sans-serif", which (in most browsers) maps to a typeface that can be configured in your browser's Preferences. (For example in Firefox 2, it is Edit > Preferences > Content > Advanced > Sans-serif.) By default it will typically be a typeface such as Vera Sans or Helvetica, which will be wider than the DejaVu Sans Condensed or Trebuchet MS used previously. That should also help a little with readability.

[Matthew Paul Thomas (mpt)]

One thing I forgot to mention: The font size in tables has not been changed, because (in the current page layout) there is not room to do so without causing many more rows to wrap to multiple lines.

[Ralph Corderoy (ralph-inputplus)]

I was happy with the old font size. I wondered why it has got too big and thick in the last couple of days. This bug fix is the answer. I'm viewing on a 17" CRT at 1280x1024. I don't think I've come across a site where I have to make the font size smaller before.

Why can't everything be based off the font size the user has selected in their browser preferences using percentages? Wouldn't that please all of the people all of the time?

[Duncan Lithgow (duncan-lithgow)]

Ralph: as you have noted the font size for default text should be set to 'normal' or '100%' and not to a fixed number. I and many others, including the W3C, agree.

[Ralph Corderoy (ralph-inputplus)]

Those people finding the new font size is too big are collecting around bug #126993.