Map "Pass Through the Mountains" should be marked as "1v1" and balanced

[toptopple]

Official map "Pass Through the Mountains" is marked as "Unbalanced" but I deem it perfectly balanced, actually. I test-played this map and also inspected it in the editor. I don't quite see why this map should be categorised "unbalanced". Could it be this is a false setting rendered from version upgrade? Anyway, this map could be rather tagged "1v1" instead!

[GunChleoc (gunchleoc)]

@kaputtnik: As our resident map expert, can you have a look?

[kaputtnik (franku)]

I don't know why i am a map expert... The value "unbalanced" was set in year 2011:

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/trunk/revision/6100#maps/The%20pass%20through%20the%20mountains.wmf/elemental

Don't know the reason why it is set this way. I think toptopple is right. It should be marked as balanced.

Regarding the 1v1 tag: Shouln't be all 2 Player maps tagged as 1v1? 2 Player maps that misses this tag:
- Firegames
- Islands at war
- The Pass through the Mountains

The changes needs to be done in the elemental file stored in the directory of a map. toptopple can you make a branch containing these changes? Changing this values is a bitt fiddly and has to be tested well.

[GunChleoc (gunchleoc)]

Well, you were involved in the map changed for Build 19, so tag, you're it :P

#2 sounds good to me :)

[Tino (tino79)]

I've put these changes into a branch: https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/map_tags

I am not sure about "every 2 player map" is automatically "1v1".
What about scenarios and coop/team variants?

[kaputtnik (franku)]

> What about scenarios and coop/team variants?

These tags ar only for reducing the choice of maps in the list when starting a new game, they have no effect on other settings, afaik.

[GunChleoc (gunchleoc)]

Exactly. So, a map can combine multiple tags. The same map could be taqged as teams of 2 and teams of 3, for example.

[toptopple (7010622-q-deactivatedaccount)]

In my understanding the tags "1v1", "2v2" etc. refer to match situations where it is expected that each player has about the same chance out of starting conditions. If we apply this sense, it cannot be said that each 2 player map also is a case for a "1v1" tag!

[kaputtnik (franku)]

> In my understanding the tags "1v1", "2v2" etc. refer to match situations where it is expected that each player has about the same chance out of starting conditions.

What would you call it if the players didn't have the same starting conditions? I guess "Unbalanced". So we could have an unbalanced 1v1 map. Doesn't fit this with your understanding?

[toptopple (7010622-q-deactivatedaccount)]

> What would you call it if the players didn't have the same starting conditions? I guess "Unbalanced". So we could have an unbalanced 1v1 map. Doesn't fit this with your understanding?

Exactly! That wouldn't fit my understanding. ;)

It's a matter of definition and the purpose being set. So you CAN say "1v1" is ANY map which has more than one player because you always can convert any amount of players into AI minor roles. Since people should be in the position to otherwise recognise how many players are available in a map, this tag "1v1" actually is superfluous, in that broad understanding. (On a side note: a ramp-up of the map selection overview/list should be made an objective for r20 as number of players isn't visible now.)

I believe in the following understanding: these practice tags "1v1", "teams of 2" or whatever only make sense on the background that even chances are set up in the map for all participants or all teams. Thus maps would be more easily selectable for any tournament setup and you could say, e.g. if the map has such tag then it is a tournament quality map.

[GunChleoc (gunchleoc)]

> On a side note: a ramp-up of the map selection overview/list should be made an objective for r20 as number of players isn't visible now.

It's on my todo-list; I am planning to completely redesign those screens.

Which of these maps would sou say aren't good for 1v1? It will be easy to remove the tags again.

- Firegames
- Islands at war
- The Pass through the Mountains

[kaputtnik (franku)]

I don't understand these filters at all, so i have to be silent :D

E.g. I don't know what "Free for all" means...

[GunChleoc (gunchleoc)]

In our case, I guess playing without teams

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathmatch

[toptopple (7010622-q-deactivatedaccount)]

The core of "Free for all" is, as I understood it, a match setting for multiple players where each player plays against everyone. However, very often it is also allowed to build alliances during the process of the match, which can or must be broken before the winner is determined, depending on the game's declared win-policy. This modus is fundamentally different to any "team" setup as teams are fixed alliances during the entire match.

I had a look into the maps and, if "balanced" belongs to the core of "1v1", this tag has to be removed from Firegames and Islands at War. Both maps, however, COULD be transformed into balanced maps without undue effort. I'd even say they SHOULD because they would render very nice match maps 1V1. I'd even volunteer for the modifications and new map version if no-one else takes the preference.

[toptopple (7010622-q-deactivatedaccount)]

On a sidenote: I don't think WL currently allows for dynamic alliance decisions. This would be an interesting development project with the target to allow full "Free-for-All" games where win-policy can be set up during game start. This is also augmented by mail-sending and trading among selectable players. Interesting extra-stuff! ;)

[SirVer (sirver)]

Intentionally we did not build the ability to backstab into widelands. Alliances are therefore fixed for a full game.

> Am 01.11.2016 um 06:56 schrieb toptopple <email address hidden>:
>
> On a sidenote: I don't think WL currently allows for dynamic alliance
> decisions. This would be an interesting development project with the
> target to allow full "Free-for-All" games where win-policy can be set up
> during game start. This is also augmented by mail-sending and trading
> among selectable players. Interesting extra-stuff! ;)
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to
> widelands.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1637851
>
> Title:
> Map "Pass Through the Mountains" should be marked as "1v1" and
> balanced
>
> Status in widelands:
> Incomplete
>
> Bug description:
> Official map "Pass Through the Mountains" is marked as "Unbalanced"
> but I deem it perfectly balanced, actually. I test-played this map and
> also inspected it in the editor. I don't quite see why this map should
> be categorised "unbalanced". Could it be this is a false setting
> rendered from version upgrade? Anyway, this map could be rather tagged
> "1v1" instead!
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/1637851/+subscriptions

[toptopple (7010622-q-deactivatedaccount)]

BUMP! - The following is unanswered from post #13:

>I had a look into the maps and, if "balanced" belongs to the core of "1v1", this tag has to be removed from Firegames and Islands at War. Both maps, however, COULD be transformed into balanced maps without undue effort. I'd even say they SHOULD because they would render very nice match maps 1V1. I'd even volunteer for the modifications and new map version if no-one else takes the preference.

1. I think developers should sit down and come up with definitions on what these map tags are supposed to mean. These definition should be available in the Wiki and perhaps as hover-tooltips is the game GUI, if feasible.

2. Someone should decide if the maps mentioned above can and should be transformed into REAL 1v1 maps.

[toptopple (7010622-q-deactivatedaccount)]

I support the view that "1v1", "teams of x" tags shall refer to match maps. In this sense they would be required to qualify for providing balanced chances for all players. This may be disputed but probably the best choice at hand.

Second, I support the view that "1v1" should only apply to maps with 2 possible human players. Perhaps "possible" can be weakened to "inaugurated", but e.g. it doesn't make sense to tag maps with 4 or 6 regular players as "1v1" just because they can be watered down to 1-1 by switching off all others. That would weaken the tag's meaning.

[GunChleoc (gunchleoc)]

I'm not an expert on maps - maybe the best strategy would be to open a forum thread on this issue, because that is where the map creators hang out.

[kaputtnik (franku)]

Since the bug title is solved by tinos branch, i mark this bug as 'fix committed'.

A rethink of the tags is maybe appropriate, but not part of this bug, IMHO.

[GunChleoc (gunchleoc)]

Fixed in build20-rc1