Ubuntu offers no "zero configuration network" or so (unlike Apple)

[oss_test_launchpad]

Binary package hint: gnome-network

When you two Mac computers, you can connect them easily with an ethernet cable and a few clicks (if I remember right, Apple calls that "zero configuration network"). Gutsy has nothing the like.

The ability to connect two computers very easily (etc. within the family) would be a killer feature for Ubuntu.

[sam tygier (samtygier)]

i am sorry to mark this invalid, but it is too vague and not really true.

ubuntu comes with avahi installed by default, so if you connect too ubuntu computers together they choose ip address, and can resolve each other with hostname.local. see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToZeroconf

it is using the same technology as mac os x.

perhaps you mean that filesharing is not instantly enabled when you connect 2 computers? it is not turned on by default on mac os x.

i recommend that if you want to make progress in making file sharing easier on ubuntu, to try the following.
investigate what is currently available (System->Administration->Shared folders, gshare, ...)
start a discussion on the forums ( http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=253 will be updated for 8.04 soon)
write a spec

[oss_test_launchpad (oss-test-launchpad)]

1.) Marking a bug report invalid FIRST and THEN asking what someone meant (see above) is rather inefficient, don't you think? Do you believe this method keeps people motivated to work on Ubuntu?
2.) It's fine to have avahi installed, but with not little power user knowledge I have not been able to connect two Ubuntu computers within two hours, whereas on a Mac my aunt could do it. IMHO Avahi on Ubuntu lacks a simple and intuitively understandable gui.

[sam tygier (samtygier)]

i am sorry if i offended you.

what version of ubuntu is each machine running? do they have avahi installed? (check for the avahi-daemon package).
have you made changes to the network settings? please attach /etc/network/interfaces (please remove any WEP keys that it might have)
how are the machines connected?
do they get an IP address?
can you ping from one to another by IP address, mdns name (hostname.local)?

[oss_test_launchpad (oss-test-launchpad)]

> what version of ubuntu is each machine running?

Both Gutsy, always fully updated.

> do they have avahi installed? (check for the avahi-daemon package).

Yes.

> have you made changes to the network settings?

No.

Just noted that I did not use a twisted pair cable. This does not change the issue itself but the functionality. I will, however, return to this bug report when I have bought a twisted pair cable. Please leave this bug report open.

[Sebastien Estienne (sebest)]

Using a twisted pair cable or a switch should make no difference.

How are you testing ?

zeroconf networking (aka bonjour) is basically 3 things:
1) automatically assigning an ip when no dhcp is available (169.254.0.0/16), this feature is also available on Windows, you can check that you have an ip like this with (ip addr or ifconfig in a shell)
2) resolving hostname when no dhcp is available using HOSTNAME.local (you can test using ping HOSTNAME.local, you work work with your hostname, and the hostname of other macosx / linux host)
3) discovering services on the network (eg: shared music by itunes), you can test by sharing some musics with itunes on your mac or with rhythmbox on linux, and the shared music should appear on the other mac/linux box
you can also test by installing "avahi-utils" package and using "avahi-browse -a" from the shell, it will discover available host and services on your network

[Loye Young (loyeyoung)]

This bug report should be marked as invalid because (i) zeroconf / avahi is already present, and (ii) it should be deprecated anyway. Avahi presents security risks and is rarely useful.

From a security standpoint, Avahi should be used only if (i) no computers are connected to the Internet at all, or (ii) all computers are behind a firewall and the entire network is reconfigured to use Avahi instead of DHCP.

From a usefulness standpoint, a DHCP server will almost always already be present in a properly configured network, so Avahi at best is unnecessary and often causes much disruption to the network. If the computers are behind a firewall, network connectivity is provided at the firewall / router / DHCP server and should NOT be undermined by the clients. One could reconfigure the network for Avahi connectivity and turn off DHCP, but Avahi rarely provides an advantage over standard DHCP.

Although Avahi is already present, is should be downgraded to a Suggests dependency and DISABLED by default. See https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/192258

A better alternative would be to install the DHCP server by default and provide a GUI interface that presents a user-friendly manner to turn it on. However, few network administrators would want competing DHCP servers on their network (which is essentially what Avahi is anyway).

Happy Trails,

Loye Young
Isaac & Young Computer Company
Laredo, Texas
http://www.iycc.biz

[oss_test_launchpad (oss-test-launchpad)]

Maybe I put this wrong. I do not support any special program to solve this. All I am saying is that Ubuntu users, unlike Mac users, cannot just connect two computers with a cable and in this way get data from one computer to another. This would, however, be an important comfort feature.

Application scenario: A works on his notebook B and wants to easily get 1GB to his workplace desktop C. What he would expect would be the following:

- He connects B and C using an ethernet cable.
- C says: "Computer B has been connected to your computer. Do you want to allow the B to copy or delete user data on your hard disk?"
- Same vice versa.
- A clicks "Yes" on "B" and "C", then enters the "B" user password on B and the "C" user password on C and can now copy data in both ways.

With my limited knowledge of network technologies, I would assume that all programs that would be necessary for that already are on every Ubuntu system. It's just that you would have to configure them in such way that the above mentioned procedure would work. Maybe I am wrong here.

[Loye Young (loyeyoung)]

> Application scenario: A works on his notebook B and wants to easily get
> 1GB to his workplace desktop C. What he would expect would be the
> following:
>
> - He connects B and C using an ethernet cable.
> - C says: "Computer B has been connected to your computer. Do you
> - want to allow the B to copy or delete user data on your hard disk?"

I cannot disagree more forcefully with this suggestion, on many levels.

From a usefulness standpoint, the suggestion would involve much work
for little benefit. The "Application scenario" starts with a rather
simple desired task: move 1GB from one computer to another. There are
a number of methods for transferring files between computers without
further expanding the insecure and unstable avahi/bonjour/zeroconf
morass that already exists (and which, IMNSHO, should be deprecated
and ripped out of every computer connected to the Internet). Network
protocols have already been carefully engineered to accomplish the
desired result. The supposed expectation of the user to be able to
connect two computers together by an ethernet cable and *by default*
share files assumes an absence of security on both machines that is a
throwback to Windows98.

In the "Application scenario", the user would simply connect the
laptop to the workplace network. I daresay that there are few, if
any, networks connected to the internet that do not already have a
router/DHCP server with NAT firewall (and if such networks exist, they
are open targets for crackers and should be disconnected from the
Internet immediately). The network's DHCP server will give the
notebook an IP address and the two computers can share the information
over the already established network, according to the security setup
of the network.

Again, I vote that this alleged "bug" be closed as invalid.

Happy Trails,

Loye Young
Isaac & Young Computer Company
Laredo, Texas
http://www.iycc.biz

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 8:34 AM, oss_test_launchpad wrote:
> Maybe I put this wrong. I do not support any special program to solve
> this. All I am saying is that Ubuntu users, unlike Mac users, cannot
> just connect two computers with a cable and in this way get data from
> one computer to another. This would, however, be an important comfort
> feature.
>
> - C says: "Computer B has been connected to your computer. Do you want to allow the B to copy or delete user data on your hard disk?"
> - Same vice versa.
> - A clicks "Yes" on "B" and "C", then enters the "B" user password on B and the "C" user password on C and can now copy data in both ways.
>
> With my limited knowledge of network technologies, I would assume that
> all programs that would be necessary for that already are on every
> Ubuntu system. It's just that you would have to configure them in such
> way that the above mentioned procedure would work. Maybe I am wrong
> here.
>
> ** Also affects: kdenetwork (Ubuntu)
> Importance: Undecided
> Status: New
>
> --
> Ubuntu offers no "zero configuration network" or so (unlike Apple)
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/146737
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>

[oss_test_launchpad (oss-test-launchpad)]

I am not a computer security specialist but I think there must be a way of doing this, and doing this in such way that it is safe for the system.

I do not know what DHCP is. Neither do I know what NAT is. Neither does the average user know.

Btw. for reasons of safety, I would greatly encourage that other launchpad users' e-mail adresses are not being pasted into launchpad. Please advise the launchpad administrators to edit your post so that it disappears. This is clearly unfair behaviour and not according to the Ubuntu philosophy.

[oss_test_launchpad (oss-test-launchpad)]

I might add that connecting B and C via USB cable would probably be similarly acceptable for the average user. Maybe this solves some of the security issues you see.

[Loye Young (loyeyoung)]

>I am not a computer security specialist but I think there must be a way
>of doing this, and doing this in such way that it is safe for the
>system.

There are several existing safe methods to transfer files between
computers. The method you describe is not safe because any other
computer connected via the ethernet port would be able to get the
files off your system. Thus, every time you connected to the Internet,
everyone in the world could get your files. It's the way Windows 98
did it, and one of many reasons why Windows is a security nightmare.

>I do not know what DHCP is. Neither do I know what NAT is.

DHCP is the standard protocol by which the computer negotiates for an
IP address. A router usually has a built-in DHCP server that
administers which computers get which IP address. NAT is the system of
sharing a single Internet connection among several computers.
Technically, NAT is independent of DHCP, but in practice, NAT and DHCP
work together.

The "average user" is connected to the Internet using a computer that
already automatically asks the router for a connection to the network
(using DHCP), and the router automatically allocates the IP address
and connects the computer. Once connected, all the computers on the
network can share data and files.

If you really do have two stand-alone computers and you want to
connect them together, install the dhcp3-server package on one of the
computers and use a crossover cable to connect the two together. If
you don't have a crossover cable, you can connect them via a switch or
hub.

>I might add that connecting B and C via USB cable would probably be
>similarly acceptable for the average user.

This is appropriate for another discussion, but in short, connecting
two computers using a regular USB cable is dangerous. You could well
end up frying your motherboard. It is possible using a USB crossover
cable, but that's outside the scope of this discussion.

[oss_test_launchpad (oss-test-launchpad)]

I understand that you feel strongly about this topic. I suppose this is the reason why you paste other people's e-mail adresses (which you have from launchpad's notification mail server) into this thread, making them subject to mail spamming, which I would regard as a lack of sensitivity for questions of data protection as well as netiquette.

I once again call upon you to kindly ask the administrators to edit your post so that it meets the requirements and habits of this community. Btw. a short apology would be appropriate.

USB is not "outside the scope of this discussion". This thread is not about a particular kind of cable (see above). Please do not use this thread for a personal flame war against avahi. Thank you.

[Loye Young (loyeyoung)]

Bug report is both invalid and incomplete. Report is invalid because premise of bug that "Ubuntu offers no zero configuration network" is incorrect. Avahi is an implementation of zero configuration and ships with Ubuntu by default. Report is incomplete because filer refuses to answer debugging questions from Avahi developer (who is supportive of bug filer's position), is offended by disagreement on Avahi's technical merits, and is dismissive of suggestions for alternative methods to accomplish desired results.

[Loye Young (loyeyoung)]

Avahi implementation of zero configuration network is installed by default. Filer refuses to answer debugging questions from Avahi developer.

[oss_test_launchpad (oss-test-launchpad)]

"Zero configuration" would mean that it requires "zero configuration", so you are wrong.

This is btw. not against avahi or any other specific program but about a missing feature which could IMHO easily be implemented using technologies already shipping with Ubuntu. It is about configuration.

Once again I ask you to not make this thread your personal anti avahi thread. This is not what it is about. Apart from that, you already have numerous anti avahi threads running in launchpad, so please leave this one alone. Thank you.