Bible delete button is too accessible

[Samuel Findlay]

The ability to edit Bible meta-data and delete Bibles was recently added to the Bible plugin. There is now a "Delete the selected Bible" on the Bible plugin toolbar. I think this is far too accessible/visible for what is a non-reversible (no "undo") and therefore "dangerous" operation. Would be much safer if moved to inside the "Edit Bible" dialog.

Implement new Bible maintenance dialog as per https://bugs.launchpad.net/openlp/+bug/1016597/comments/11

[Jonathan Corwin (j-corwin)]

I agree. It should probably be within the meta data editor itself, and then with a warning dialog before final deletion.

[Andreas Preikschat (googol-deactivatedaccount)]

I disagree with you. here is a dialog asking you if you want to delete the bible. If you hit "yes" we cannot do anything about it. Besides, all media managers behave like this. If you hit the delete icon in the song media manager then a dialog opens and asks you if you want to delete this song. Why should this not be the same for bibles?

I do not know how many songs I deleted (in a productive environment), but not many. Same for bibles... (and again, why a different treatment?)

And the idea to move this to the meta data editor does not seem to be a good solution to me. We hide (!) it there? It's a meta data manager. And not a bible manager....

To put it in a nutshell, I don't see any reason to take any further action here.

[Tim Bentley (trb143)]

Agree with Andreas

[Jonathan Corwin (j-corwin)]

I disagree. A song you can type in again. A Bible might be so easy to
replace. Can it be set to opinion? (I'm not near a computer atm)
On Jul 6, 2012 5:28 PM, "Tim Bentley" <email address hidden> wrote:

> Agree with Andreas
>
> ** Changed in: openlp
> Status: Confirmed => Won't Fix
>
> ** Changed in: openlp
> Milestone: 1.9.11 => None
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are a member of OpenLP
> Core, which is subscribed to OpenLP.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1016597
>
> Title:
> Bible delete button is too accessible
>
> Status in OpenLP - Worship Presentation Software:
> Won't Fix
>
> Bug description:
> The ability to edit Bible meta-data and delete Bibles was recently
> added to the Bible plugin. There is now a "Delete the selected Bible"
> on the Bible plugin toolbar. I think this is far too
> accessible/visible for what is a non-reversible (no "undo") and
> therefore "dangerous" operation. Would be much safer if moved to
> inside the "Edit Bible" dialog.
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/openlp/+bug/1016597/+subscriptions
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openlp-core
> Post to : <email address hidden>
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openlp-core
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>

[John Cegalis (jseagull1)]

I agree with Jonathan. It would be a real eye opener if somebody thought they were clearing the verses below with the delete button only to find they were deleting the whole bible. I think it should be in Configure --> Bibles.

[Tim Bentley (trb143)]

What is difficult t understand about "Do you want to delete the Message?" in a tag marked "Delete Bible".
If you want to make it blindingly obvious change to the text to

"Are you sure you want to remove the 'Message' completely and utterly from your system? To undo this you will need to reinstall your bible"

[Jonathan Corwin (j-corwin)]

The difference is, IMHO, in songs, images, customs etc you see a list of
items and that button deletes the selected item. In Bibles you see a list
of verses you searched for but delete button doesn't delete one of those
items. It's inconsistent and could confuse.
On Jul 7, 2012 5:00 PM, "Tim Bentley" <email address hidden> wrote:

> What is difficult t understand about "Do you want to delete the Message?"
> in a tag marked "Delete Bible".
> If you want to make it blindingly obvious change to the text to
>
> "Are you sure you want to remove the 'Message' completely and utterly
> from your system? To undo this you will need to reinstall your bible"
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are a member of OpenLP
> Core, which is subscribed to OpenLP.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1016597
>
> Title:
> Bible delete button is too accessible
>
> Status in OpenLP - Worship Presentation Software:
> Opinion
>
> Bug description:
> The ability to edit Bible meta-data and delete Bibles was recently
> added to the Bible plugin. There is now a "Delete the selected Bible"
> on the Bible plugin toolbar. I think this is far too
> accessible/visible for what is a non-reversible (no "undo") and
> therefore "dangerous" operation. Would be much safer if moved to
> inside the "Edit Bible" dialog.
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/openlp/+bug/1016597/+subscriptions
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openlp-core
> Post to : <email address hidden>
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openlp-core
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>

[Andreas Preikschat (googol-deactivatedaccount)]

> The difference is, IMHO, in songs, images, customs etc you see a list of
> items and that button deletes the selected item. In Bibles you see a list
> of verses you searched for but delete button doesn't delete one of those
> items. It's inconsistent and could confuse.
But the edit icon also works on the bible and not on the selected
item(s). I am not saying that the current situation is perfect, but I do
not see any better (!) solution. Moving this functionality away will
cause more confusion. At least the solutions a) to move this to the
settings and b) to move this to the edit dialog do not convince me! Also
this seems to be the nicest solution, anything else seems to make things
cluttered.

Another things:
I think that the analogy is wrong. The delete icon in the songs media
manager deletes the selected song. The delete icon in the bible manager
deletes the bible. I cannot imagine that any user expects the verse to
be deleted. It is a DELETE button and not a CLEAR-the-list-button (and
as said before, I cannot imagine that a user wants to delete a verse
from the bible).

[Samuel Findlay (sfindlay)]

I think the issue here is Jonathan and John are trying to see it from the ordinary user's perspective, whereas Andreas and Tim are coming at it primarily from a developer/designer perspective. As developers we tend to look for "the nicest solution" within our very logical understanding of the application's framework. We have a pretty clear understanding of how the application is supposed to work so a lot of user errors don't make much sense to us. The ordinary user, however, is "attempting to do a task, getting there by imperfect approximations. Don't think of the user as making errors; think of the actions as approximations of what is desired." [1: Norman, 2002] Good application design encourages the user to explore and discover, and tries not to severely punish them for making errors.

> I think that the analogy is wrong. The delete icon in the songs media
> manager deletes the selected song. The delete icon in the bible manager
> deletes the bible. I cannot imagine that any user expects the verse to
> be deleted. It is a DELETE button and not a CLEAR-the-list-button (and
> as said before, I cannot imagine that a user wants to delete a verse
> from the bible).
The problem is, your ordinary user doesn't have as clear an understanding of all this. We all know that users do many "stupid" things which we can't quite imagine. But at the time the user does it, their action does seem logical to them. We should not punish them: a deleted Bible could be very difficult to replace 30mins before a service (whereas a deleted song can easily be retyped fairly quickly).

> What is difficult to understand about "Do you want to delete the Message?" in a tag marked "Delete Bible"?
The problem here is not that the dialog isn't clear enough, it's that many (Windows) users have been "trained" to ignore such confirmation dialogs. For example, whenever a user deletes a file on Windows, they have to say yes to a confirmation dialog. But many users are so used to clicking yes on such dialogs, they do so automatically ("muscle memory") before they even think about what they've done. That's one reason the Windows Recycle Bin is so well used!

> But the edit icon also works on the bible and not on the selected
> item(s). I am not saying that the current situation is perfect, but I do
> not see any better (!) solution.
I agree the edit icon is not very well placed. Have a look at the row of icons there: "Edit the selected Bible", "Delete the selected Bible", "Preview the selected Bible", "Send the selected Bible live", "Add the selected Bible to the service". Now that is confusing! The first two act on the Bible itself, but the last three act only on the selected verses. This is very different to the Songs manager, where all five of those icons act on the selected item.
The cleanest solution, IMO, would be to change the Bible Editor to Bible Maintenance. This would reflect the Songs manager where we have a "Song Maintenance" form for managing Authors, Topics, and Song Books. It would also then be very logical to have the "delete Bible" functionality within the Bible Maintenance form.

[1] Norman, D., 2002, "The Design of Everyday Things"

[Raoul Snyman (raoul-snyman)]

I agree with Jonathan, John and Sam. It doesn't matter that a dialog shows up, it doesn't matter than you think that it's OK, the point is that users do stupid things. Windows users have been ignoring messages in dialogs for years, why do you think they're suddently going to start reading them now? And while we can't prevent stupidity from happening, we can at least make some things less accessible so that Stupid can't delete his Bibles.

[Jonathan Corwin (j-corwin)]

For the "Edit the selected Bible" button, could we not change this to open a dialog like we get for editing the song Topics/Authors/Books. I.e. list all the users Bibles, they can then choose to Edit or Delete them from a list.

This takes them one step away from deleting, rather than doing it accidentally when they meant to click the preview button and did the "blindly click a dialog without reading it" thing that my mother likes to do.

[Tim Bentley (trb143)]

Error message has been changed to be much clearer for 2.0 release

Any changes to UI would have be wait till 2.1 and then agreement reached as to the best way to implement this.

[Andreas Preikschat (googol-deactivatedaccount)]

The menu entries should be disabled for bibles