Building size / flag icon on mouse cursor placement

[Alex Henry]

I've always thought that this was an untapped possibility for Widelands: when you mouse over an empty space the background icon could change to the possible building size on that site. The "show building sizes" option could still be available of course for those that prefer this way.
'
It's a small wishlist item but the game it's pretty beautiful and invoking the "show building sizes" overlay makes the game a lot more polluted. Expert players will probably want to know exactly where they can build to gain time but laid-back players would probably enjoy the overlay more.

I believe most of the code for this is already implemented (building size checking / mouse over events / icons / etc) so it should probably be simple to implement. I might take a look at doing it myself if the dev team could assure me it would be an interesting feature to introduce to the official release.

[TiborB (tiborb95)]

Do you mean a third option between "show bulding placeholders" and "show nothing" - to "show placeholder only under the mouse"?

[kaputtnik (franku)]

I am not sure if i understand your statement right:

> Expert players will probably want to know exactly where they can build to gain time but laid-back players would probably enjoy the overlay more.

I believe "expert players" will ever use the current implemented "show buildhelp" overlay because this is the only way to plan the infrastructure of buildings in case of lacking building space. If a player uses the implementation you suggest he may place a small building and restrict thereby the buildings space of medium/big buildings without noticing them.

And every time one could switch the buildings space overlay on/off by just pressing "space". So i am against implementing this, because it is a useless option, imho.

[Alex Henry (tukkek)]

I was actually thinking of having two options: "show bulding placeholders" (as today) and "show nothing" would actually show the overlay by default on mouse-over, since the mouse-over isn't showing any interesting information at the moment.

Of course 3 options would be fine too.

[Alex Henry (tukkek)]

> I believe "expert players" will ever use the current implemented "show buildhelp" overlay

This is exactly what I meant so, yes you probably got my meaning wrong.

> because it is a useless option

It's not useless or I'd not have gone through the trouble of filing a report for it, dummy. Maybe you're looking for another word?

The way I see it having the opportunity to have an overlay when there is none currently is a missed opportunity and it wouldn't hurt to have it since it wouldn't actually hurt anything. Do you have any negative opinions on this instead of "it adds nothing"? Because if it adds nothing and removes nothing then it seems to me you also don't have an opinion against it. If you're worried about development time as I've said before all the pieces should be there already - if it is hard to code then I agree it's not worth the effort but I doubt that's the case.

[kaputtnik (franku)]

Yes, sorry, 'useless' was a wrong word. I just believe your idea would confuse new players until they know how to activate the overall buildhelp.

Just my opinion. Maybe others think different :-)

[SirVer (sirver)]

Welcome Alex and thanks for your interest!

I actually like this suggestion and I remember settler 2 having the very same feature: http://www.pc-vision.de/images/content/artikel,games,game_classics_teil_2_-_die_siedler_2/siedler2_6_big.jpg

In fact settlers did it a bit different - the cursor remained the same, but the fsel icon would change. I think that would be a neat feature.

We are in feature freeze for b19 already though, so while you are free to add this feature in a feature branch, it will not be merged until b19 is out of the doors (I guess this will be another 6-8 weeks). Just to manage expectations.

[Alex Henry (tukkek)]

> I remember settler 2 having the very same feature

Maybe it was some hidden memory then since I've played Settlers 2 a long
time ago :D

> We are in feature freeze for b19 already though

Yes, I know and I've mentioned it in one of my reports (maybe the scratchy
music one) thus I have (more so) no expectations regarding it.

> you are free to add this feature in a feature branch

I don't plan on implementing it myself - I'm more interested in #1612888
and related issues. As I've said this should be a trivial matter for anyone
who knows the codebase well enough so I'll leave it to those better than me
in this regard if they think it's a worthy addition in relation to the time
it should take to code it (after feature unfreeze, of course).

On 16 August 2016 at 06:41, SirVer <email address hidden> wrote:

> Welcome Alex and thanks for your interest!
>
> I actually like this suggestion and I remember settler 2 having the very
> same feature: http://www.pc-vision.de/images/content/artikel,games
> ,game_classics_teil_2_-_die_siedler_2/siedler2_6_big.jpg
>
> In fact settlers did it a bit different - the cursor remained the same,
> but the fsel icon would change. I think that would be a neat feature.
>
> We are in feature freeze for b19 already though, so while you are free
> to add this feature in a feature branch, it will not be merged until b19
> is out of the doors (I guess this will be another 6-8 weeks). Just to
> manage expectations.
>
>
> ** Changed in: widelands
> Importance: Undecided => Wishlist
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1612885
>
> Title:
> Building size / flag icon on mouse cursor placement
>
> Status in widelands:
> New
>
> Bug description:
> I've always thought that this was an untapped possibility for Widelands:
> when you mouse over an empty space the background icon could change to the
> possible building size on that site. The "show building sizes" option could
> still be available of course for those that prefer this way.
> '
> It's a small wishlist item but the game it's pretty beautiful and
> invoking the "show building sizes" overlay makes the game a lot more
> polluted. Expert players will probably want to know exactly where they can
> build to gain time but laid-back players would probably enjoy the overlay
> more.
>
> I believe most of the code for this is already implemented (building
> size checking / mouse over events / icons / etc) so it should probably
> be simple to implement. I might take a look at doing it myself if the
> dev team could assure me it would be an interesting feature to
> introduce to the official release.
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/1612885/+subscriptions
>

[Alex Henry (tukkek)]

> the cursor remained the same, but the fsel icon would change

Just a clarification. This is indeed what I meant to say: the cursor
remains the same but the background "hint" becomes the building size icon -
instead of the current X-like yellow crosshair.

On 17 August 2016 at 21:11, Alex Henry <email address hidden> wrote:

> > I remember settler 2 having the very same feature
>
> Maybe it was some hidden memory then since I've played Settlers 2 a long
> time ago :D
>
> > We are in feature freeze for b19 already though
>
> Yes, I know and I've mentioned it in one of my reports (maybe the scratchy
> music one) thus I have (more so) no expectations regarding it.
>
> > you are free to add this feature in a feature branch
>
> I don't plan on implementing it myself - I'm more interested in #1612888
> and related issues. As I've said this should be a trivial matter for anyone
> who knows the codebase well enough so I'll leave it to those better than me
> in this regard if they think it's a worthy addition in relation to the time
> it should take to code it (after feature unfreeze, of course).
>
> On 16 August 2016 at 06:41, SirVer <email address hidden> wrote:
>
>> Welcome Alex and thanks for your interest!
>>
>> I actually like this suggestion and I remember settler 2 having the very
>> same feature: http://www.pc-vision.de/images/content/artikel,games
>> ,game_classics_teil_2_-_die_siedler_2/siedler2_6_big.jpg
>> <http://www.pc-vision.de/images/content/artikel,games,game_classics_teil_2_-_die_siedler_2/siedler2_6_big.jpg>
>>
>> In fact settlers did it a bit different - the cursor remained the same,
>> but the fsel icon would change. I think that would be a neat feature.
>>
>> We are in feature freeze for b19 already though, so while you are free
>> to add this feature in a feature branch, it will not be merged until b19
>> is out of the doors (I guess this will be another 6-8 weeks). Just to
>> manage expectations.
>>
>>
>> ** Changed in: widelands
>> Importance: Undecided => Wishlist
>>
>> --
>> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
>> report.
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1612885
>>
>> Title:
>> Building size / flag icon on mouse cursor placement
>>
>> Status in widelands:
>> New
>>
>> Bug description:
>> I've always thought that this was an untapped possibility for
>> Widelands: when you mouse over an empty space the background icon could
>> change to the possible building size on that site. The "show building
>> sizes" option could still be available of course for those that prefer this
>> way.
>> '
>> It's a small wishlist item but the game it's pretty beautiful and
>> invoking the "show building sizes" overlay makes the game a lot more
>> polluted. Expert players will probably want to know exactly where they can
>> build to gain time but laid-back players would probably enjoy the overlay
>> more.
>>
>> I believe most of the code for this is already implemented (building
>> size checking / mouse over events / icons / etc) so it should probably
>> be simple to implement. I might take a look at doing it myself if the
>> dev team could assure me it would be an interesting feature ...

[SirVer (sirver)]

Kaputtnik, are you opposed to this feature? You stated that you think it might be confusing to new players - that would of course be decremental.

[kaputtnik (franku)]

I am often opposed new things on first sight ... ;)

More advanced players should write their opinion.

Why i think it could confuse:
A new player may start a game without playing the tutorial. So he will see the fsel-icon changing when moving the mouse over the map. He will may think:"Aha, it shows me where i could build a building". All fine and good, but he will no be able to plan where to build his buildings. Just in the beginning of a game it could be very important to know where to place specific buildings. F.e. a new player will probably place a building which restricts to place a blockhouse or sentry to expand his territory. With the current buildhelp he could see immediately how a placed building restricts build space of other buildings.

Some thoughts on the feature:
The current crosshair is then replaced with six states (icons) ?:
1. Flag
2. Small building (red)
3. Medium building (yellow)
4. Big building (green or blue(port))
5. Mine
6. Crosshair (for unreachable terrains like lava)

The fsel icon (crosshair) will change a lot while moving the mouse over the map. Don't know if this will cause flickering effects because the building signs are much present than the fsel icon.

If one has enlarged his territory a lot this could be an interesting feature, because the current buildhelp shows a lot of buildspace where it isn't needed. Mostly one want's to know buildspace near the border in this case, so moving the mouse and showing buildspaces would be good.

[SirVer (sirver)]

I think the new player will eventually click the buildhelp button and figure this out. I am not too concerned about this.

Here is sample gameplay from settlers 2 where you can see their fsel change:
https://youtu.be/Z9MmQwsF_js?t=254

What i find really elegant is that their buildhelp icon "float" a few pixels, so if you enable buildhelp and fsel, they are neatly stacked on top of each other giving a really nice look.

[kaputtnik (franku)]

In the video one could see that the buildhelp and the suggestion from Alex is one thing. Toggeling the buildhelp shows the changed crosshair. I have understood that he wants to make it as the behavior when the buildhelp is toggled off.

And in the video all buildhelp images are yellow.

I think we may need some mockups to clarify some things and find a good solution for this suggestion :-)

[SirVer (sirver)]

> I have understood that he wants to make it as the behavior when the buildhelp is toggled off.

If you look closely, you'll see that the behavior does not change - special field sels are used if buildhelp is on or off - just not outside of your own terrain, there crosshairs are used.

> And in the video all buildhelp images are yellow.

Widelands had that too at one point - we actually went through a lot of iterations to end up on our current build overlays (see attached image).

A mockup would be nice, we direly need talented artists again...

[Alex Henry (tukkek)]

> a new player will probably place a building which restricts to place a
blockhouse or sentry to expand his territory

I have a couple of comments on this, one is a criticism of this way of
thinking and the other a possible mitigation to this.

The criticism is that you seem to imply that the "build help" overlay
doesn't cause this sort of confusion. I think this doesn't hold true
because a totally new player seems more likely to construct a building
anyway, restricting nearby spaces in the process and just then wonder why
the hell that big green icon that was just there suddenly disappeared! It
may take a few tries before he realizes how the game actually works. I sure
did go through this process myself.

The point being: the user interface gives absolutely no hint, whatsoever of
how the currently placed building will affect nearby spaces. The only way a
player can know that is through experience, by playing the tutorial or
reading the docs or online resources. Hence this is a moot discussion in
the context of user interface - at least until Widelands actually has some
interface that shows such information (which I doubt is planned or
considered a priority at this point).

The mitigation proposal is to, instead of showing just the build icon under
the cursor actually also show all the adjacent spaces icons as well:
pointing the mouse at an empty space would show a "neighborhood build
help". This way a player will automatically know that he could be building
a bigger building to the north instead of a smaller building here. Again,
this doesn't show though the interface that the player could be restricting
himself of larger buildings but it can be a better hint to players who are
already aware of the fact.

This would be an even bigger change and personally I think we could expect
players to actually either hover the mouse around a little bit or toggle
the build help if they should be preoccupied with that sort of thing given
the current game scenario but nonetheless it's probably a viable option for
everyone to consider and I actually think it could be just as good as my
original proposal here.

Sir Ver: great to see how the build icons progressed through time :) I hope
something like we're discussing here will be the next step!

On 21 August 2016 at 20:23, SirVer <email address hidden> wrote:

> > I have understood that he wants to make it as the behavior when the
> buildhelp is toggled off.
>
> If you look closely, you'll see that the behavior does not change -
> special field sels are used if buildhelp is on or off - just not outside
> of your own terrain, there crosshairs are used.
>
> > And in the video all buildhelp images are yellow.
>
> Widelands had that too at one point - we actually went through a lot of
> iterations to end up on our current build overlays (see attached image).
>
> A mockup would be nice, we direly need talented artists again...
>
>
> ** Attachment added: "Widelands build help overlays over the times"
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/1612885/+
> attachment/4725199/+files/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-22%20at%2001.22.29.png
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the b...

[kaputtnik (franku)]

Nice timeline :-)

Lets wait on Alex answers :-)

[SirVer (sirver)]

I think both views are pretty clear - without actually implementing this feature and experience a bit with it OR having a few mockups it will be hard to judge the actual value of it - and if it is distracting or not.

Setting to confirmed - we can continue the discussion of the merits of this feature if/when it is actually in a branch.

[GunChleoc (gunchleoc)]

I think that this idea has promise. Personally, I have other things regarding the UI that are higher on my todo-list, but I will he happy to help if somebody wants to take this on. Code can probably be stolen from the editor interface, where we have configurable radii for mouse overlays.

[GunChleoc (gunchleoc)]

Migrated to https://github.com/widelands/widelands/issues/2059