util-linux: Debian maintainer asleep

[Debian Bug Importer]

Automatically imported from Debian bug report #285520 http://bugs.debian.org/285520

[Martin Zobel-Helas (zobel)]

Hi Andries,

On Monday, 13 Dec 2004, you wrote:
>
> Debian has an util-linux maintainer who does nothing at all.
I don't know where you get this information from, but looking on
http://packages.qa.debian.org/u/util-linux.html shows me that LaMont is
quite active. There are eleven uploads of util-linux in 2004, 3 of them
in December. Also, LaMont is one of the buildd admins within the Debian
Project and he does many work you might not see.

> I have not received a single bug report from him.
Be careful, buildd admins tend to file bug reports if a package is not
autobuildable.

> That is bad for Debian users - they may have to live with
> bugs for years where a fix can be given in minutes,
> and it is bad for the rest of the world: bug reports
> that could have been used to improve the software
> disappear in a black hole - the Debian Bug data base -
> never to be looked at again.

If you want to improve the package-status of util-linux you might ask
LaMont if he is going to accept co-maintainership on this package.

Greetings
Martin

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Automatically imported from Debian bug report #285520 http://bugs.debian.org/285520

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-Id: <email address hidden>
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:46:33 +0100 (MET)
From: <email address hidden>
To: <email address hidden>, <email address hidden>
Subject: util-linux: Debian maintainer asleep

Package: util-linux
Version: 2.12k
Severity: grave

Just got a bug report on the use of cfdisk in the Spanish locale,
and fixed the problem. A Debian Bug Number was given, and I see
that the problem was known for over a year.
This is Bad.

Debian has an util-linux maintainer who does nothing at all.
I have not received a single bug report from him.

That is bad for Debian users - they may have to live with
bugs for years where a fix can be given in minutes,
and it is bad for the rest of the world: bug reports
that could have been used to improve the software
disappear in a black hole - the Debian Bug data base -
never to be looked at again.

I hope this situation can improve.

Andries

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-ID: <email address hidden>
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:27:14 +0100
From: Martin Zobel-Helas <email address hidden>
To: <email address hidden>, <email address hidden>
Subject: Re: Bug#285520: util-linux: Debian maintainer asleep

--f2QGlHpHGjS2mn6Y
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Hi Andries,

On Monday, 13 Dec 2004, you wrote:
>=20
> Debian has an util-linux maintainer who does nothing at all.
I don't know where you get this information from, but looking on
http://packages.qa.debian.org/u/util-linux.html shows me that LaMont is
quite active. There are eleven uploads of util-linux in 2004, 3 of them
in December. Also, LaMont is one of the buildd admins within the Debian
Project and he does many work you might not see.

> I have not received a single bug report from him.
Be careful, buildd admins tend to file bug reports if a package is not
autobuildable.

> That is bad for Debian users - they may have to live with
> bugs for years where a fix can be given in minutes,
> and it is bad for the rest of the world: bug reports
> that could have been used to improve the software
> disappear in a black hole - the Debian Bug data base -
> never to be looked at again.

If you want to improve the package-status of util-linux you might ask
LaMont if he is going to accept co-maintainership on this package.

Greetings
Martin

--f2QGlHpHGjS2mn6Y
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[Andreas Barth (aba)]

* <email address hidden> (<email address hidden>) [041213 22:10]:
> Just got a bug report on the use of cfdisk in the Spanish locale,
> and fixed the problem. A Debian Bug Number was given, and I see
> that the problem was known for over a year.
> This is Bad.
>
> Debian has an util-linux maintainer who does nothing at all.
> I have not received a single bug report from him.

I am really sorry that the bug reports were not forwarded to you.

What you could do (if you want) is subscribe to the so-called package
tracking system,
http://www.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/ch-resources.en.html#s-pkg-tracking-system
Via this, you can get all bug reports (and all mail to any of those bug
reports) directly. Of course, I agree that that is _not_ a perfect
solution, and perhaps you can workout something better together with
Lamont, but it is at least a start.

Another thing would be to look at http://bugs.debian.org/src:util-linux
to get an overview over the active bugs.

Cheers,
Andi
--
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
   PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-ID: <email address hidden>
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:27:10 +0100
From: Andreas Barth <email address hidden>
To: <email address hidden>, <email address hidden>
Cc: <email address hidden>
Subject: Re: Bug#285520: util-linux: Debian maintainer asleep

* <email address hidden> (<email address hidden>) [041213 22:10]:
> Just got a bug report on the use of cfdisk in the Spanish locale,
> and fixed the problem. A Debian Bug Number was given, and I see
> that the problem was known for over a year.
> This is Bad.
>
> Debian has an util-linux maintainer who does nothing at all.
> I have not received a single bug report from him.

I am really sorry that the bug reports were not forwarded to you.

What you could do (if you want) is subscribe to the so-called package
tracking system,
http://www.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/ch-resources.en.html#s-pkg-tracking-system
Via this, you can get all bug reports (and all mail to any of those bug
reports) directly. Of course, I agree that that is _not_ a perfect
solution, and perhaps you can workout something better together with
Lamont, but it is at least a start.

Another thing would be to look at http://bugs.debian.org/src:util-linux
to get an overview over the active bugs.

Cheers,
Andi
--
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
   PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C

[Thomas Hood (jdthood-aglu)]

> Debian has an util-linux maintainer who does nothing at all.
> I have not received a single bug report from him.

If you want to know what bugs are present in util-linux that have been
reported by Debian users, please look at:

    http://bugs.debian.org/src:util-linux

If you were to scan that list from time to time then it would save the
Debian maintainer the secretarial work of forwarding bug reports to you.

I have spoken to LaMont about the problem of maintaining util-linux. He
said that he would like to import the package sources into arch and
assemble a maintenance team. I assume that he is too busy these days to
do much about those plans.

But while we are discussing developers' shortcomings, perhaps you can
explain why you haven't applied the patch I sent you over a year ago
which would allow mount to work with a symbolic link at /etc/mtab. You
said you would apply the patch but you haven't done it. As a result, I
was under the impression that _you_ were asleep.

Both you and LaMont should find some co-maintainers.

Because "Maintainer is asleep" isn't a real bug I am closing this
report.
--
Thomas Hood

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-Id: <1103013617.22112.151.camel@thanatos>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:40:18 +0100
From: Thomas Hood <email address hidden>
To: <email address hidden>
Subject: Sleeping developers

> Debian has an util-linux maintainer who does nothing at all.
> I have not received a single bug report from him.

If you want to know what bugs are present in util-linux that have been
reported by Debian users, please look at:

    http://bugs.debian.org/src:util-linux

If you were to scan that list from time to time then it would save the
Debian maintainer the secretarial work of forwarding bug reports to you.

I have spoken to LaMont about the problem of maintaining util-linux. He
said that he would like to import the package sources into arch and
assemble a maintenance team. I assume that he is too busy these days to
do much about those plans.

But while we are discussing developers' shortcomings, perhaps you can
explain why you haven't applied the patch I sent you over a year ago
which would allow mount to work with a symbolic link at /etc/mtab. You
said you would apply the patch but you haven't done it. As a result, I
was under the impression that _you_ were asleep.

Both you and LaMont should find some co-maintainers.

Because "Maintainer is asleep" isn't a real bug I am closing this
report.
--
Thomas Hood

[Andries-brouwer (andries-brouwer)]

On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 12:48:13AM -0800, Debian Bug Tracking System wrote:
> This is an automatic notification regarding your Bug report
> #285520: util-linux: Debian maintainer asleep,
> which was filed against the util-linux package.
>
> It has been closed by one of the developers, namely
> Thomas Hood <email address hidden>.
>
> Their explanation is attached below. If this explanation is
> unsatisfactory and you have not received a better one in a separate
> message then please contact the developer, by replying to this email.
>
> Debian bug tracking system administrator
> (administrator, Debian Bugs database)
>
> Received: (at 285520-done) by bugs.debian.org; 14 Dec 2004 08:41:06 +0000
> Subject: Sleeping developers
> From: Thomas Hood <email address hidden>
> To: <email address hidden>
>
> > Debian has an util-linux maintainer who does nothing at all.
> > I have not received a single bug report from him.
>
>
> If you want to know what bugs are present in util-linux that have been
> reported by Debian users, please look at:
>
> http://bugs.debian.org/src:util-linux

That is the wrong reply. Yes, I can go around and search for bugs
in RedHat, SuSE, Mandrake, Debian, etc etc databases.
That is not how it works.

People submit bug reports. The distribution package maintainers make
sure the report is not a misunderstanding, is not caused by private
modifications, really belongs to the util-linux package. If they
understand what happens they create a proposed patch and send it to
me. If they do not understand what happens they just send the bug
report.

It is important that this is done quickly - the submitter of the bug
is often needed for further clarification, or for confirming that a
patch solves the problem.

The current Debian data base contains many problem reports for problems
that were solved years ago, or even never existed.

> If you were to scan that list from time to time then it would save the
> Debian maintainer the secretarial work of forwarding bug reports to you.

It is not secretarial work. If it were, you should just set up an alias
so that the bug tracking machinery forwards the reports. That would be
much better than the current situation. But earlier Debian maintainers
did a lot of good work. The current maintainer does nothing for util-linux.
If users corresponded with me their bugs would actually get fixed
instead of stored in a data base.

> I have spoken to LaMont about the problem of maintaining util-linux. He
> said that he would like to import the package sources into arch and
> assemble a maintenance team. I assume that he is too busy these days to
> do much about those plans.

I called it "asleep", you call it "too busy". The conclusion stays:
the current Debian package maintainer does nothing for util-linux.
It would be good if Debian got a util-linux maintainer who actually
does the work implied by the maintainership.

> But while we are discussing developers' shortcomings, perhaps you can
> explain why you haven't applied the patch I sent you over a year ago
> which would allow mount to work with a symbolic link at /etc/mtab. You
> said you would apply the patch but you haven't done i...

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-ID: <email address hidden>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:00:21 +0100
From: Andries Brouwer <email address hidden>
To: <email address hidden>
Cc: <email address hidden>
Subject: Re: Bug#285520 acknowledged by developer (Sleeping developers)

On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 12:48:13AM -0800, Debian Bug Tracking System wrote:
> This is an automatic notification regarding your Bug report
> #285520: util-linux: Debian maintainer asleep,
> which was filed against the util-linux package.
>
> It has been closed by one of the developers, namely
> Thomas Hood <email address hidden>.
>
> Their explanation is attached below. If this explanation is
> unsatisfactory and you have not received a better one in a separate
> message then please contact the developer, by replying to this email.
>
> Debian bug tracking system administrator
> (administrator, Debian Bugs database)
>
> Received: (at 285520-done) by bugs.debian.org; 14 Dec 2004 08:41:06 +0000
> Subject: Sleeping developers
> From: Thomas Hood <email address hidden>
> To: <email address hidden>
>
> > Debian has an util-linux maintainer who does nothing at all.
> > I have not received a single bug report from him.
>
>
> If you want to know what bugs are present in util-linux that have been
> reported by Debian users, please look at:
>
> http://bugs.debian.org/src:util-linux

That is the wrong reply. Yes, I can go around and search for bugs
in RedHat, SuSE, Mandrake, Debian, etc etc databases.
That is not how it works.

People submit bug reports. The distribution package maintainers make
sure the report is not a misunderstanding, is not caused by private
modifications, really belongs to the util-linux package. If they
understand what happens they create a proposed patch and send it to
me. If they do not understand what happens they just send the bug
report.

It is important that this is done quickly - the submitter of the bug
is often needed for further clarification, or for confirming that a
patch solves the problem.

The current Debian data base contains many problem reports for problems
that were solved years ago, or even never existed.

> If you were to scan that list from time to time then it would save the
> Debian maintainer the secretarial work of forwarding bug reports to you.

It is not secretarial work. If it were, you should just set up an alias
so that the bug tracking machinery forwards the reports. That would be
much better than the current situation. But earlier Debian maintainers
did a lot of good work. The current maintainer does nothing for util-linux.
If users corresponded with me their bugs would actually get fixed
instead of stored in a data base.

> I have spoken to LaMont about the problem of maintaining util-linux. He
> said that he would like to import the package sources into arch and
> assemble a maintenance team. I assume that he is too busy these days to
> do much about those plans.

I called it "asleep", you call it "too busy". The conclusion stays:
the current Debian package maintainer does nothing for util-linux.
It would be good if Debian got a util-linux maintainer who actually
does the work implied by the maintainership.

> But while...

[Thomas Hood (jdthood-aglu)]

> The current Debian data base contains many problem reports for problems
> that were solved years ago, or even never existed.

Please let us know which problems were solved years ago and we will
close those reports. I have tried to do this but I have found it very
difficult to close reports on the basis of information provided in your
excessively terse changelogs. You don't have a BTS we can consult or,
so far as I have been able to discover, an open mailing list. Pot, meet
kettle!

> It is not secretarial work. If it were, you should just set up an alias
> so that the bug tracking machinery forwards the reports. That would be
> much better than the current situation.

Please subscribe to bug report mail via packages.qa.debian.org/util-linux
if you want to receive BTS-related mail.

> But earlier Debian maintainers did a lot of good work.

Adrian Bunk was the previous maintainer. He left the project if a huff
just before the release of woody and LaMont Jones was good enough to
take over maintainership of the package. I think that we should not
criticize him personally for the job he is doing because I am not aware
that anyone has ever offered to help or to take the package off his
hands. (If such help were offered and he refused it, that would be
different.)

You are right, though, that the job should be taken on by someone else
since it is clear that L.J. doesn't have time to take care of it.

--
Thomas Hood

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-Id: <1103060511.22112.225.camel@thanatos>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:41:51 +0100
From: Thomas Hood <email address hidden>
To: <email address hidden>
Subject: sleeping developers

> The current Debian data base contains many problem reports for problems
> that were solved years ago, or even never existed.

Please let us know which problems were solved years ago and we will
close those reports. I have tried to do this but I have found it very
difficult to close reports on the basis of information provided in your
excessively terse changelogs. You don't have a BTS we can consult or,
so far as I have been able to discover, an open mailing list. Pot, meet
kettle!

> It is not secretarial work. If it were, you should just set up an alias
> so that the bug tracking machinery forwards the reports. That would be
> much better than the current situation.

Please subscribe to bug report mail via packages.qa.debian.org/util-linux
if you want to receive BTS-related mail.

> But earlier Debian maintainers did a lot of good work.

Adrian Bunk was the previous maintainer. He left the project if a huff
just before the release of woody and LaMont Jones was good enough to
take over maintainership of the package. I think that we should not
criticize him personally for the job he is doing because I am not aware
that anyone has ever offered to help or to take the package off his
hands. (If such help were offered and he refused it, that would be
different.)

You are right, though, that the job should be taken on by someone else
since it is clear that L.J. doesn't have time to take care of it.

--
Thomas Hood

[LaMont Jones (lamont-rover3)]

On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 10:41:51PM +0100, Thomas Hood wrote:
> > The current Debian data base contains many problem reports for problems
> > that were solved years ago, or even never existed.
>
> Please let us know which problems were solved years ago and we will
> close those reports.

It is not upstreams place to solve our bugs for us.

> Please subscribe to bug report mail via packages.qa.debian.org/util-linux
> if you want to receive BTS-related mail.

Given that many of the bugs are due to Debian changes, this is probably
not a truely beneficial thing for him to do. We should be sending bugs
to him in a more timely manner, after verifying that they are at least
not ours.

> > But earlier Debian maintainers did a lot of good work.
> criticize him personally for the job he is doing because I am not aware
> that anyone has ever offered to help or to take the package off his
> hands. (If such help were offered and he refused it, that would be
> different.)

I have, in the past, declined at least one offer of assistance, for
various reasons.

> You are right, though, that the job should be taken on by someone else
> since it is clear that L.J. doesn't have time to take care of it.

Times change. I'm working on getting the diff back down to a manageable
size, and the bugs that we have fixed pushed back upsteam this month.

lamont

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-ID: <email address hidden>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:49:06 -0700
From: <email address hidden> (LaMont Jones)
To: Thomas Hood <email address hidden>
Cc: <email address hidden>, <email address hidden>
Subject: Re: sleeping developers

On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 10:41:51PM +0100, Thomas Hood wrote:
> > The current Debian data base contains many problem reports for problems
> > that were solved years ago, or even never existed.
>
> Please let us know which problems were solved years ago and we will
> close those reports.

It is not upstreams place to solve our bugs for us.

> Please subscribe to bug report mail via packages.qa.debian.org/util-linux
> if you want to receive BTS-related mail.

Given that many of the bugs are due to Debian changes, this is probably
not a truely beneficial thing for him to do. We should be sending bugs
to him in a more timely manner, after verifying that they are at least
not ours.

> > But earlier Debian maintainers did a lot of good work.
> criticize him personally for the job he is doing because I am not aware
> that anyone has ever offered to help or to take the package off his
> hands. (If such help were offered and he refused it, that would be
> different.)

I have, in the past, declined at least one offer of assistance, for
various reasons.

> You are right, though, that the job should be taken on by someone else
> since it is clear that L.J. doesn't have time to take care of it.

Times change. I'm working on getting the diff back down to a manageable
size, and the bugs that we have fixed pushed back upsteam this month.

lamont

[Thomas Hood (jdthood-aglu)]

> > Please let us know which problems were solved years ago and we will
> > close those reports.
>
> It is not upstreams place to solve our bugs for us.

It is not his job, but if he knows of bug reports that could be
closed then it would be helpful if he let us know which ones.
That's all I meant to say.

(However, it could be that you plan to go through all the reports
and close those that have been addressed and don't need any help
from others to do this. Fine.)

> > Please subscribe to bug report mail via packages.qa.debian.org/util-linux
> > if you want to receive BTS-related mail.
>
> Given that many of the bugs are due to Debian changes, this is probably
> not a truely beneficial thing for him to do. We should be sending bugs
> to him in a more timely manner, after verifying that they are at least
> not ours.

Granted, the maintainer has been delinquent in this respect.

>> I think that we should not
>> criticize him personally for the job he is doing because I am not aware
>> that anyone has ever offered to help or to take the package off his
>> hands. (If such help were offered and he refused it, that would be
>> different.)
> I have, in the past, declined at least one offer of assistance, for
> various reasons.

So you are positively insisting that you have done something wrong and
deserve personal criticism? Erm, OK.

(I am slightly bewildered by the turn this conversation has taken.)

> Times change. I'm working on getting the diff back down to a manageable
> size, and the bugs that we have fixed pushed back upstream this month.

Well, that's what matters. I'm very happy to see util-linux pulled out
of the doldrums.

--
Thomas Hood

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-Id: <1103202098.22112.259.camel@thanatos>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:01:39 +0100
From: Thomas Hood <email address hidden>
To: <email address hidden>, <email address hidden>
Subject: util-linux out of the doldrums

> > Please let us know which problems were solved years ago and we will
> > close those reports.
>
> It is not upstreams place to solve our bugs for us.

It is not his job, but if he knows of bug reports that could be
closed then it would be helpful if he let us know which ones.
That's all I meant to say.

(However, it could be that you plan to go through all the reports
and close those that have been addressed and don't need any help
from others to do this. Fine.)

> > Please subscribe to bug report mail via packages.qa.debian.org/util-linux
> > if you want to receive BTS-related mail.
>
> Given that many of the bugs are due to Debian changes, this is probably
> not a truely beneficial thing for him to do. We should be sending bugs
> to him in a more timely manner, after verifying that they are at least
> not ours.

Granted, the maintainer has been delinquent in this respect.

>> I think that we should not
>> criticize him personally for the job he is doing because I am not aware
>> that anyone has ever offered to help or to take the package off his
>> hands. (If such help were offered and he refused it, that would be
>> different.)
> I have, in the past, declined at least one offer of assistance, for
> various reasons.

So you are positively insisting that you have done something wrong and
deserve personal criticism? Erm, OK.

(I am slightly bewildered by the turn this conversation has taken.)

> Times change. I'm working on getting the diff back down to a manageable
> size, and the bugs that we have fixed pushed back upstream this month.

Well, that's what matters. I'm very happy to see util-linux pulled out
of the doldrums.

--
Thomas Hood

[LaMont Jones (lamont)]

I'm working with the upstream maintainer, and all appears more happy now.