Meaning of "held back" packages is unclear

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Many packages just DON'T install on Ubuntu when all repositories are selected
(default).
Also, now, I get some broken functionality. NO MATTER what package I am tryign
to install, I will ALWAYS get this message about these packages that are "to
be kept back". How do I get rid of this?
http://osnews.com/img/8286/shot2.png

[Matt Zimmerman (mdz)]

synaptic is telling you that a newer version of those packages is available,
which you have not opted to install (yet). This is not a problem with your
system; it is informational. Refer to section 3.6 of the synaptic manual for
instructions to upgrade your system.

It is NOT the default for all repositories to be selected; by default, only
supported packages are available. By enabling access to unsupported packages,
you are straying from the officially supported path. See here for more information:

http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/components/document_view

[Eugenia Loli-Queru (eloli)]

>This is not a problem with your system; it is informational.

This is a really-really-really bad UI then. "To be kept back" doesnt' tell me
anything. It should say "Other available updates" and to be honest, that
dialog should not mention the updates at all, in the first place.

>It is NOT the default for all repositories to be selected

Then, it is a bad policy on your side to include these URLs there. If you
don't support those, you SHOULD NOT include them there. Or, create a patch to
Synaptic just so when a user checks an unsupported repository, an alert would
come up and inform him that this server is not supported and let the user
decide for his/her fate.

That's what I call a well done desktop. Don't expect users to read FAQs, a
good desktop includes all the information needed right in front of the user's
face, at the right time. People almost never read help files and FAQs, they
expect it to just work.

On all my years of using Mac OS X, I have ONLY ONCE had to read documentation,
just a few months ago, in order to figure out how to create a pause between
the "9" and the rest of the telephone number, when trying to dial out with my
modem from a motel. I never needed to, ever, read anything else. It just
worked the way I expected to.

That's what's wrong with Linux desktops today: the DETAILS.

[Matt Zimmerman (mdz)]

(In reply to comment #2)
> >This is not a problem with your system; it is informational.
>
> This is a really-really-really bad UI then. "To be kept back" doesnt' tell me
> anything. It should say "Other available updates" and to be honest, that
> dialog should not mention the updates at all, in the first place.

Michael Vogt, the author of Synaptic, is usually very responsive to such issues,
but he does not read bug reports here. I suggest that you send him email at
<email address hidden> with your suggestion.

> Then, it is a bad policy on your side to include these URLs there. If you
> don't support those, you SHOULD NOT include them there. Or, create a patch to
> Synaptic just so when a user checks an unsupported repository, an alert would
> come up and inform him that this server is not supported and let the user
> decide for his/her fate.

We have already discussed this at length, and yes, it is appropriate for there
to be a more prominent warning, and it is planned. However, this will not
happen for the Warty release due to time constraints. It is a reasonable
compromise to have the entries available, but disabled by default.

> That's what I call a well done desktop. Don't expect users to read FAQs, a
> good desktop includes all the information needed right in front of the user's
> face, at the right time. People almost never read help files and FAQs, they
> expect it to just work.

This is, of course, our goal, and we will get there. Please have a little
patience, this being our very first preview of our very first release. We have
not met every goal yet. :-)

[Michael Vogt (mvo)]

Hi Eugenia,

thanks for your bugreport. Apparently we have two issues here:
1) "Kept back": I agree that the name is not very good and we should reanme it
   If we remove completely it, a user who wanted to upgrade all packages may
   miss it. We could move it into the "Show details" section though.
2) About the unsupported repositories: As Matt pointed out, we discussed this
   a interally and we will add a visible indicator for unsupported packages.
   Currently there is:
   http://people.debian.org/~mvo/synaptic/synaptic-mark-unsupported.png
   (notice the "not supported" on the left hand side)
   We also want to add it to the summary page, when the user clicks apply.
   Do you think this is sufficient?

thanks,
 Michael

P.S. Please let me know if you have more issue like this with synaptic. I'm
always interessted in suggestions for improvement.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru (eloli)]

> 1) "Kept back": I agree that the name is not very good and we should rename
it
> If we remove completely it, a user who wanted to upgrade all packages may
> miss it. We could move it into the "Show details" section though.

I am not saying to remove it completely, but I don't think that this
information has a place on that specific panel. You see, the scenario is that
the user made some choices to install something specific, he/she should not be
bothered with additional info. The updates should be an alert IMHO (with the
ability to disable the alert from the prefs), everytime the user loads
Synaptic. Then, the user would know in a well-written text that there are
available packages for upgrade.

> We also want to add it to the summary page, when the user clicks apply.
> Do you think this is sufficient?

Yes, but they should not be selected by default. And also, when the user tries
to select such a repository, load an alert to tell the user that this
action "voids the warranty" and then let the user decide his/her fate.

> P.S. Please let me know if you have more issue like this with synaptic. I'm
> always interessted in suggestions for improvement.

I need a way to install the -dev packages automatically, when I have marked
its binary for installation. It is too much back-and-forth work right now each
time I need to compile an app.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru (eloli)]

>I need a way to install the -dev packages automatically, when I have marked
its binary for installation.

Or, when some packages have been marked for installation automatically as part
of dependancies, I would also like their -dev packages to get installed too.

I really don't like how RPM/DEBs do it currently with different packages for -
dev and binaries because:
 1. hard drive space is cheap these days and most people are on ISDN or
faster, we need to go with the times
 2. it creates inconvienience when you want to compile something
 3. can be confusing for new users
 4. there was a fourth one, but I forgot it now (I swear! :)

[Jason Toffaletti (jason)]

Eugenia, can we close this bug now that the "held back" language has been
changed? If not, I would recommend changing the summary to describe the more
general nature of this bug now. Something along the lines of "synaptic user
interface enhancements". Thanks.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru (eloli)]

Ok, let's close it.