missleading message in ffmpeg

[burek]

=== CUT ===

$ ffmpeg -i in.webm -t 30s -vcodec copy -acodec copy out.webm
ffmpeg version 0.8.1-4:0.8.1-0ubuntu1, Copyright (c) 2000-2011 the Libav developers
  built on Mar 22 2012 05:09:06 with gcc 4.6.3
This program is not developed anymore and is only provided for compatibility. Use avconv instead (see Changelog for the list of incompatible changes).
[matroska,webm @ 0xe217a0] Estimating duration from bitrate, this may be inaccurate

Seems stream 0 codec frame rate differs from container frame rate: 1000.00 (1000/1) -> 30.00 (30/1)
Input #0, matroska,webm, from 'in.webm':
  Duration: 01:03:36.96, start: 0.000000, bitrate: N/A
    Stream #0.0(eng): Video: vp8, yuv420p, 854x478, PAR 1:1 DAR 427:239, 1k fps, 30 tbr, 1k tbn, 1k tbc (default)
    Stream #0.1: Audio: vorbis, 44100 Hz, stereo, s16 (default)
Output #0, webm, to 'out.webm':
  Metadata:
    encoder : Lavf53.21.0
    Stream #0.0(eng): Video: libvpx, yuv420p, 854x478 [PAR 1:1 DAR 427:239], q=2-31, 1k tbn, 1k tbc (default)
    Stream #0.1: Audio: libvorbis, 44100 Hz, stereo (default)
Stream mapping:
  Stream #0.0 -> #0.0
  Stream #0.1 -> #0.1
Press ctrl-c to stop encoding
[webm @ 0xe72cc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically increasing dts to muxer in stream 0: 33 >= 33
av_interleaved_write_frame(): Invalid argument

=== END ===

The message that says "This program is not developed anymore and is only provided for compatibility. Use avconv instead (see Changelog for the list of incompatible changes)." is simply put a lie. FFmpeg project is still alive and active (with double the size of user community than libav, which is simply a fork of FFmpeg project), so that message should be removed or rephrased to something less misleading.

People are coming to FFmpeg support channel asking when did FFmpeg "shut down" and similar crazy stuff, which really annoys more and more people. I don't know how was this allowed to happen in ubuntu community, but it is really a bad example for all.

If there are any moral and decent people in ubuntu community left, this thing should be corrected, because if you leave it this way, it's simply telling lies to ubuntu users, making them believe something that is not true. Please fix this.

[Launchpad Janitor (janitor)]

Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users.

[thom (tsk)]

possible solution:
change the text to:

---
This program is a fork of ffmpeg and the ffmpeg command is only (temporarily) provided for compatibility. Use avconv instead (see Changelog for the list of incompatible changes).
---

[Reinhard Tartler (siretart)]

On Mo, Sep 17, 2012 at 23:26:43 (CEST), thom wrote:

> ---
> This program is a fork of ffmpeg and the ffmpeg command is only (temporarily) provided for compatibility. Use avconv instead (see Changelog for the list of incompatible changes).
> ---

That's inaccurate. The /usr/bin/ffmpeg program as shipped by libav is
not strictly a fork, as it is an unmodified version of the ffmpeg
program at the time when libav decided to go its own way. The program
did not (and will no longer) receive any updates since then for
compatibility reasons.

[burek (burek021)]

"That's inaccurate. The /usr/bin/ffmpeg program as shipped by libav is not strictly a fork, as it is an unmodified version of the ffmpeg ..."

This is inaccurate too. I've never seen in ffmpeg any such message, from any git checkout. That means people from debian did change ffmpeg source code, so it is NOT unmodified version of ffmpeg, thus the misleading message is harmful, because people do think ffmpeg itself wrote that message and abandoned the project.

That kind of message hurts ffmpeg project a lot, convincing people that avconv is some kind of "future ffmpeg" which is not. avconv is simply an ffmpeg fork and should clearly be distinguished from ffmpeg that way and not to lie to people that it's some kind of further natural step in ffmpeg's development.

[burek (burek021)]

"This program is not developed anymore ..."
This is also so inaccurate, considering that ffmpeg has (as of today) far more monthly commits than avconv, so it's pretty obvious that it IS still being actively developed. I'm aware that certain people from debian would like this not to be true and that ffmpeg project just dies and goes away, but that didn't happen. It would only be fair for to correct this injustice by fair and honest message that says debian has decided to maintain avconv instead of ffmpeg, and that's it. No need for lies like ffmpeg is not developed any more and similar things...

[thom (tsk)]

Yes Reinhart, burek is definitely right.

I expect from you, as a packager for libavtools, a bit more honour, professionalism and pride instead of trying to be smart.
I do have to tell you that libav and libavtools are among the best tools in the world so you as a packager should reflect that.

The text in the libav-ffmpeg binary is harmful for FFmpeg and potentially harmful for libav because it is (without the context of a complicated backstory and a skewy explanation) indeed untrue. This could, together with the deceptive rigging of the apt packet manager, heavily taint the professional reputation of libav and could eventually be considered a criminal act.

You also have to keep in mind that most of the ffmpeg users don't even know about the fork.
With 28000+ packets in the ubuntu repository, you can't expect from every user to follow the backstory of every packet.
Most of them don't even know that they didn't install ffmpeg but a fork.
(apt-get install ffmpeg gives you ??? libavtools. Explain that one to joe user)

So try to read the bugreport again and in particular the last two phrases.
The message in the forked ffmpeg seems to cause a lot of confusion.
Can you imagine why ? Can you explain it in your own words why people seem to find it confusing ?
If you can't explain it then you don't understand the bug. No problem, just shut up and leave it to someone else on your team.

If you can explain why it causes confusion, YOU can solve the bug.

But keep in mind that even if 95% of the ffmpeg developers left the ffmpeg project to continue their work as a fork, it is still a fork so they have to fully come to terms with that. A true fork can only be proud of itself if it behaves like a true fork:

1) A fork is a NEW project. A fresh start. Don't keep old names or logos associated with which you forked from.
2) Never badmouth the motherproject. No nitpicking, no declaring it obsolete or depricating it and no other sneaky tricks.
3) that also means: NOT rigging packetmanagers like apt to let the fork pass for the motherproject.
4) If the fork has come to be out of disagreement, no problem, be proud and fight eachother with the power of coding.
( trespassing these rules will, as you have seen, inevitably and disasterously backfire, it will at least cost trust, loyalty, credibility and goodwill from users and peers alike . . .possibly a lawsuit. . . . .I don't like to see that happen to libav )

I recommend you to apply my proposed tekst as a bugfix or contact upstream a.s.a.p. , they need to know this !
If you don't : within a few years libav could be in a lot of trouble. Keep also in mind that this ubuntu version is supported for 5 years so it won't pass quickly.

[thom (tsk)]

The change in the text has made the updates for precise.
Hurray !

*** THIS PROGRAM IS DEPRECATED ***
This program is only provided for compatibility and will be removed in a future release. Please use avconv instead.

So while it still does not remove the confusion between libav-ffmpeg and ffmpeg-ffmpeg completely , thank god the lie is gone.
It somehow feels like ALSA people talking about OSS (or their own OSS layer)

This bug seems to be a kind of SOLVED

[burek (burek021)]

Well, not quite. I agree there was a little progress toward changing the injustice introduced with such behavior, but there is one major key point that should be noted.

"ffmpeg tool" (binary) distributed with debian/ubuntu has been modified by a third party (either by debian/ubuntu packagers or by libav developers), so it's not original ffmpeg in any case. The statement like:

"ffmpeg version 0.8.1-4:0.8.1-0ubuntu1, Copyright (c) 2000-2011 the Libav developers"

is fraudulent, because that is NOT ffmpeg binary (because the original ffmpeg binary does not have any such misleading message in its output). Also, libav developers have created a FORK of ffmpeg, thus they can't claim the copyright on ffmpeg binary, but only their own, named "avconv".

Here we have a typical copyright infringement combined with false advertising, which really is a criminal act, at least according to the current laws in US.

The entire issue happened because libav developers (some of which are also part of the debian maintainers group) wanted ffmpeg to just disappear and go away from the scene. The method they've used is really immoral and also maybe criminal too. If there is any decency left in debian/ubuntu community, this issue should be resolved once and for all in a correct way. Either remove ffmpeg completely, stating the reason why it was removed (switched to ffmpeg fork named libav) and without providing any binaries for any kind of "compatibility" and such (take the responsibility for your actions) or use and modify the avconv binary and write whatever kind of message you like. Nobody will care in that way.

Just stop distributing something that is not ffmpeg, claiming it is ffmpeg, copyrighted by libav and "not developed" or "deprecated" anymore.

[thom (tsk)]

@Burek
Yes, that seems to be the real story, I totally agree with you.