ev: I'm currently working on bug 766171, but I'm growing tempted to switch off the upgrade option for installs lacking an Internet connection
[11:06] cjwatson: might not be a bad idea ...
[11:07] ev: yeah, I wanted to give it my best go, as it's a really nice feature to have, but it's growing increasingly complex as I discover new facets to the bug.
[11:44] ev: okay, mpt and I talked it over and we're going to keep the option but change the text dependent on whether there's an active Internet connection (like how the prepare page works): https://docs.google.com/View?docid=0AU5sFuLRpCpBZGZra2pqY2pfMTAxZ25rcnBnNXY&hl=en#4_5_1_Automatic_partitioning_o_8475526086986065
[11:44] ev: cjwatson: do you think this is a sufficiently critical problem to warrant the late string change?
[11:44] ev: err addition
[11:45] ev: personally, I think displaying something in English is better than hiding the option and thus offering no explanation at all
[11:46] ev: (oh, and this is in the "Ubuntu {older version} on it..." box)
[12:23] cjwatson: ev: I don't see the proposed change in the Google docs link - can you point me to it specificaly?
[12:23] cjwatson: oh, I see it now
[12:23] cjwatson: ev: we should keep the "System-wide settings will be cleared" bit
[12:24] genec: Kurisutian: yes, had a connection issue but solved now
[12:24] cjwatson: (IMO)
[12:24] ev: cjwatson: agreed.  mpt, are you okay with that?
[12:24] cjwatson: ev: I think at this point, I'm leaning towards preferring to disable the option for 11.04 than change the string, though
[12:25] cjwatson: I mean, if there's no network connection
[12:25] ev: cjwatson: oh? Could you elaborate on why?
[12:25] mpt: ev, done
[12:26] cjwatson: ev: because it's a new feature, and obviously this situation isn't working well; it would be better to leave people in the same state they were in for 10.10, rather than giving them an option we already know has problems
[12:26] ev: mpt: thanks
[12:28] ev: cjwatson: to clarify, do you mean disable it completely, even when there is an Internet connection?
[12:28] cjwatson: ev: no, I mean disable it only if there is no network connection
[12:28] ev: okay
[12:28] cjwatson: we already have UI that says that things may not work ideally if you don't have a connection
[12:29] ev: my concern with doing that is two people will see different results without understanding why
[12:29] ev: granted, we already have a fair bit of that on the partitioning page
[12:29] cjwatson: ev: one of those people would have had an X on the second screen already
[12:31] ev: I'm not convinced there's a clear connection between that and not having an upgrade option
[12:31] cjwatson: it's certainly not perfect, but eight days before release I'd prefer to disable a known-problematic code path rather than introduce UI to warn about its problems
[12:31] cjwatson: I'd feel differently if the upgrade option had been present in 10.10
[12:31] mpt: cjwatson, if we disable it, we will need to at least explain why, in-place, so that someone doesn't wonder why they see different options from someone else (or from the screenshot in a tutorial or book)
[12:32] mpt: and that itself would involve a new string
[12:32] mpt: Other than that I don't mind much either way
[12:32] cjwatson: mpt: as ev says, there are already several cases in automatic partitioning where people see different options
[12:32] cjwatson: so one more, as a we-need-to-work-around-this-at-short-notice matter ... *shrug*
[12:33] cjwatson: (BTW, this is my own position rather than a veto or anything)
[12:34] mpt: cjwatson, sure, but they're at very different scales of knowing. Hopefully you are much more aware that you previously had Ubuntu 10.10 on this computer than that your router needs rebooting, for example.
[12:35] cjwatson: mpt: Uh, that's not what I'm talking about
[12:35] cjwatson: mpt: most people have no idea that the reason they don't have a resize option is that their system already has four primary partitions
[12:35] cjwatson: for example
[12:36] cjwatson: the UI design offers different options in that case, but does not "explain why, in-place"
[12:37] mpt: cjwatson, I would have if I could have.  The problem in that case was that it just got way too long and the explanation didn't help you make a decision anyway.
[12:38] cjwatson: mpt: I'm not saying it would have been easy, but nevertheless, such situations are there already and create divergence from screenshots in tutorials or books; those tutorials or books already have to say that you may see different options (and the ones I've seen generally do)
[12:39] Kurisutian: cjwatson: They should be in your Inbox right now.....
[12:40] ev: for what it's worth, I do think this is slightly easier for the user to resolve
[12:40] ev: if you have four primary partitions *shrug*
[12:40] ev: but all this takes is connecting to the Internet, which isn't made clear to them
[12:40] cjwatson: there are a number of cases where it isn't practical to connect during installation
[12:41] cjwatson: sure, *sometimes* it's relatively easy ...
[12:42] ev: sometimes? I would think generally.  We have a wireless indicator and it connects automatically for Ethernet via DHCP.
[12:42] cjwatson: well, seeing as I was just entirely away from any internet connectivity at all for four days, I beg to differ
[12:42] cjwatson: (I didn't have a laptop with me, but I might have done)
[12:43] ev: I can't imagine someone taking their laptop on holiday with the intention of installing an operating system on it.
[12:43] ev: it strikes me as the kind of thing you do with as many tools around you as you can find
[12:43] ev: though, this is all rampant speculation
[12:43] cjwatson: forgive me, but this is an awfully first-world attitude
[12:43] cjwatson: internet connectivity is *not* universal
[12:45] cjwatson: ev: anyway, I'm slightly losing track of the connection between this argument and the original point 
[12:45] ev: True, though I think we're diverging from the point somewhat, which is whether the extra explanation afforded to users who might be able to connect to the Internet and thus have a much better upgrade experience outweighs the confusion but minimal code delta of disabling it
[12:45] genec: ev, as an example, there are large portions of the US that still only have dialup
[12:46] cjwatson: ev: I would have thought that, in cases where it was easy for them to connect to the internet, they'd have already done that to make all the checkmarks go green
[12:46] ev: cjwatson: my concern there is that the indicator doesn't really stand out, which is why I wanted to finish the wireless page
[12:46] cjwatson: if they reach a later point without that, then either they're not reading what's in front of them (and there's only a limited extent to which we can help by adding more text) or it isn't straightforward for whatever reason
[12:46] ev: my hope would be that the note about them connecting to the internet would prompt them to look around the screen
[12:47] ev: again, I'm speculating
[12:47] cjwatson: ev: but then we'd have to deal with redrawing those options when they connect, which is more code
[12:47] cjwatson: (which I don't think is there yet?)
[12:47] ev: I've got most of the patch done, actually
[12:47] cjwatson: ev: I really don't think we should be adding such code eight days before release, if it's not already landed
[12:47] cjwatson: for oneiric, by all means
[12:49] ev: it's largely the same code that was already in ubi-parted moved to the frontend, but sure, I don't think this is ultimately worth the release team at-large having to take time out to mediate such a battle, when there are much more pressing matters to deal with 
[12:49] ev: so I'll disable it when there's no Internet connection
[12:50] ev: for O I'd much rather find some way to solve this for the no-Internet case
[12:50] ev: rather than have to have the distinction
[12:50] ev: oh and of course get that wireless page in
[12:50] cjwatson: agreed, if it's feasible