ibus languages not installed by default ibus 1.3.7 in ubuntu 10.10 beta

[Computerguy]

I am running ubuntu 10.10 beta. I am running this in virtualbox with a fresh install. I clicked on the keyboard input methods. Then when I clicked on the input methods tab to select an input method the only 2 langauges that show up are chinese and other.

To get the all of the other lanaguages to install I had to open up synaptic then search for a package called ibus-m17. Then when I downloaded the ibus-m17 package and then I logged out. When I logged back in and started ibus all of the other languages became available.

[Aron Xu (happyaron)]

IMHO, ibus-m17n is almost useless and could be consider a waste of LiveCD's space.

[Roland (Rolandixor) Taylor (rolandixor)]

?
Hello... if the other languages are not installed or even suggested, why on earth is ibus included in the first place?

[Aron Xu (happyaron)]

Hi Shawn and all,

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 07:57:12PM -0000, Computerguy wrote:
> I was wondering if you wanted to use ibus-m17 for all of the other
> languages in ibus 1.3.7. I have contacted martin pitt and told him for
> japanese at least using anthy is better than ibus-m17. Anthy for
> japanese has a lot more features than ibus-m17.
>
> Thank you, Shawn
> --
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I think there are some misunderstanding for the ibus packages and what
we are doing. Please let me try to make it clear.

Here are some facts:

Firstly, ibus is almost used only by CJK users AFAIK, that is to say
Chinese (simplified and traditional), Japanese and Korean. I believe the
number of users in each of the four are descending sorted in this order
as well.

Secondly, ibus-m17n was in CD before this time we see it is being
removed. This package provides some input method that are not good
through m17n libraries.

Thirdly, the better choices for users:
 * Chinese: ibus-pinyin (ibus-chewing is better for some traditional
            Chinese users, but ibus-pinyin is still good enough comparing
     with ibus-m17n)
 * Japanese: ibus-anthy
 * Korean: ibus-hangul

Question: What we are doing?

Now we are removing ibus-m17n (and dependencies) from the CD to save
some space, because it is not good. Maybe people will complain that with
ibus-m17n there is at least a working one but without it there is none.
Yes, but removing it should be still considered a step forward rather
than regression, because we can find better way for aid of input method
in near future's development.

Question: Shall we also consider it a regression since some user cannot
          input characters when they just finished a fresh installation?

Definitely not. People who don't use an input method may think there is
a one that can use is better than none. But things seems to be contrary
in this specific field, because the low quality of those input methods
will do harm to user experience and when there is none users will know
they need to install it (install language support or simply a package).
In fact, we may consider it a big step forward, as explained below.

Question: Why removing ibus-m17n a step forward?

We make Ubuntu for best user experience, so we are urging to provide top
class applications we can. As I've said before, ibus-m17n provides not
good input methods for users. According to our user's feedback (Chinese
users, via forum, mailing list, irc, etc), newcomers are often be
confused by those pre-installed input methods and thinking they are the
recommended ones (because Ubuntu will make a best choice for their product
if the vendor of Ubuntu is sane). Unfortunately, the input method there
are really hard to use: for example, two "pinyin" in ibus-m17n. Input
methods on Windows (R) platform are evolving quickly, the user will soon
be frustrated by such 1990s style of input method in ibus-m17n, then drop
Ubuntu beca...

[Loïc Martin (loic-martin3)]

On 22 September 2010 19:27, Aron Xu <email address hidden> wrote:
> Thirdly, the better choices for users:
>  * Chinese: ibus-pinyin (ibus-chewing is better for some traditional
>            Chinese users, but ibus-pinyin is still good enough comparing
>            with ibus-m17n)
Pinyin won't work for Taiwanese users - like you're saying,
ibus-chewing is needed since those users don't use pinyin at all (i.e.
ibus-pinyin isn't "good enough").

Unless you mean by your selection that Cantonese users have to use
something different than ibus (which method would that be?),
ibus-pinyin and ibus-chewing don't cover all Chinese users. They'd
have to learn a whole new language (Mandarin) before even being able
to consider those methods.

> Question: What we are doing?
>
> Now we are removing ibus-m17n (and dependencies) from the CD to save
> some space, because it is not good. Maybe people will complain that with
> ibus-m17n there is at least a working one but without it there is none.
> Yes, but removing it should be still considered a step forward rather
> than regression, because we can find better way for aid of input method
> in near future's development.
>
> Question: Shall we also consider it a regression since some user cannot
>          input characters when they just finished a fresh installation?
>
> Definitely not. People who don't use an input method may think there is
> a one that can use is better than none. But things seems to be contrary
> in this specific field, because the low quality of those input methods
> will do harm to user experience and when there is none users will know
> they need to install it (install language support or simply a package).
> In fact, we may consider it a big step forward, as explained below.

I completely agree that no method at all would, in this case, be
better than one that doesn't work. The Ubuntu Community should be
aware, though, that most CJK users would just download specially
localized version of the LiveCD, resulting in more fragmentation and
less bug reports. However, that was already the case when CJK support
was not working in older versions of Ubuntu, and while it meant at the
time the main Ubuntu didn't get the fixes (and wasn't working), CJK
support has now improved to the point the international version just
works, so not getting those smaller improvements might not be a big
deal.

And thanks a lot Aron for your dedication.

(Also, sorry if the formatting isn't right - I only have access to
webmail these days).

[Martin Pitt (pitti)]

Hello Aron,

thanks for the explanations!

Aron Xu [2010-09-23 1:27 +0800]:
> * Chinese: ibus-pinyin (ibus-chewing is better for some traditional
> Chinese users, but ibus-pinyin is still good enough comparing
> with ibus-m17n)
> * Japanese: ibus-anthy
> * Korean: ibus-hangul

I confirm that those three are pulled in by their respective
language-support-*, i. e. if you install with a network connection,
you will get them by default for those languages. -pinyin is now
on the CDs in maverick, so Chinese users will always get pinyin
regardless of network status.

Martin
--
Martin Pitt | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org)

[Martin Pitt (pitti)]

Loïc Martin [2010-09-22 22:39 +0200]:
> Pinyin won't work for Taiwanese users - like you're saying,
> ibus-chewing is needed since those users don't use pinyin at all (i.e.
> ibus-pinyin isn't "good enough").

language-support-fonts-zh-hant (for Taiwanese users) does pull in
ibus-chewing and ibus-table-cangjie. Do we need anything else?

Thanks,

Martin

--
Martin Pitt | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org)

[mohammad.shahan (shahan-bangladesh)]

I am really felling the lackness... but I have installed it from the Syanaptic as I am used to on this layout