Microsoft has a majority market share

[Mark Shuttleworth]

See Mark's closure comment here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834
------

Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace. This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant to fix. As the philosophy of the Ubuntu Project states, "Our work is driven by a belief that software should be free and accessible to all."

"Ubuntu software is free. Always was, always will be. Free software gives everyone the freedom to use it however they want and share with whoever they like. This freedom has huge benefits. At one end of the spectrum it enables the Ubuntu community to grow and share its collective experience and expertise to continually improve all things Ubuntu. At the other, we are able to give access to essential software for those who couldn’t otherwise afford it – an advantage that’s keenly felt by individuals and organisations all over the world."
     * http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy

Non-free software leaves users at the mercy of the software owner and concentrates control over the technology which powers our society into the hands of a few. Additionally, proprietary software stifles innovation, maintains artificial scarcities, and enables malicious anti-features such as DRM, surveillance, and other monopolistic practices.

This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.

Steps to repeat:

    1. Visit a local PC store.
    2. Attempt to buy a machine without any proprietary software.

What happens:

Almost always, a majority of PCs for sale have Microsoft Windows pre-installed. In the rare cases that they come with a GNU/Linux operating system or no operating system at all, the drivers and BIOS may be proprietary.

What should happen:

A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software.

     * http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
     * http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
     * http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

[Alexandru Bradescu-Popa (alexbradescv)]

I am in 97% agree with us but, let's be fair and tell all that:
1. All the PC's for sale shoud be clean and, when I go to buy it, to decide what I want to have and the store to install it for me.
2. Ubuntu shoud be marketed in his way (the amazing way). It's an serious OS user-friendly, but, like all in his gang (well almost all distros) not idiot-friendly.
3. Totally agree with just one adnotation: The user itself must be upgrade it. :-)))

Here, in Romania, only the big magazines are selling the PC'es with windoze preinstaled, the little ones are selling their systems with Linux (various distros) but installed in a manner that makes the computer useless. :-))

[Mark W. Tomlinson (mark-tomlinson)]

Easily reproduceable in Southern California. I recently visited 3 different computer stores and could not find a single system running a free and open operating system. At one location, when I attempted to boot an Ubuntu LiveCD, I was asked to leave the premises! Shocking...I think the severity level very well could be raised on this one.

[Cyphase (cyphase)]

I was able to reproduce this problem in an average of 85% of the cases. Seeing as this flaw concerns over ~85% of the worlds computer users, I think it should be given the highest severity rating.

[magilla (admin-seport)]

This bug is extremely prevelant in Australia We may need aid packages!

My status: Currently working on bugfix

[Fredric Solstad (ohdung)]

This bug is dangerously widespread in Sweden as well.

My current status: Working on bugfix

[seb-open2 (seb-open2)]

In Belgium the bug is extremely widespread, so much that people don't see it as a bug anymore and accept it as a fact of life... Must fix...

[Jarek Zgoda (jzgoda)]

In Poland this bug is not as significant as elsewhere, as most of ready-made computers are sold with FreeDOS or some flavour of Linux (Aurox and Mandriva predominantly). The only exception are the laptops, where only HP and Acer sell notebooks without Microsoft software preinstalled.
Maybe this is because in Poland we aren't as rich as people in other countries?

[Lam (lam-lac)]

I strongly disagree with Jarek. Of course, Poles are poor. It's true we buy computers with DOS (but rather DR-DOS to make it more "legal") or even Linux, but let's face the facts - the first thing people do on their new computers is installing pirated Windows copies. So the bug is even more significant, only not so obviously seen in PC stores. More significant because elsewhere (in more "civilised" countries) people can afford to buy Windows, only we know they pay money which then is used to stop innovation in software (among other evil things), but in Poland people are not only making market for Windows (use illegaly at home, then make your boss buy it at the office, because Windows is what you want to work on), but also stealing software (which is not right even if for some reasons we don't like the software or company in question). In case of Windows, Microsoft is silently agreeing to steal it (due to reasons mentioned earlier), but it creates the wrong assumption in users' minds (that it's OK to steal software at home, because we can't afford it). What people doesn't _realize_ is the fact that all of their computer work can be done with free software. I'm not talking about proffessionals using some bizzarre advanced tools. I'm talking about people using computers to browse web, send e-mail, talk to friends and print few pages a day at work. So this is the bugfix - end user education. Working on it :)

[Alexandre Otto Strube (surak)]

Here in Brazil there is a manufacturer which is starting to distribute a custom Ubuntu as its default operating system option!

[Zeus (zeussama)]

Here in Indonesia the bug is very serious widespreaded. We trying hard to fix the bug.

Couple months ago, Microsoft Indonesia sweeped all internet cafe that using illegal copy of Windows, after that moment most of internet cafe using Linux as it's operating system. It's a good start to introducing Linux to Indonesian.

Now, most of Computers store installed Linux in newly build computers (including laptop).

[abdulmueid (abdul-mueid)]

In Mozambique, Africa computers are not so widespread, let alone Windows or Ubuntu. All the computer shops that I know have Windows pre-installed on it (mostly pirated). Linux is only known to ISP's and companies that need a fileserver.
The bug hasnt got a stronghold here yet since there aren't as many computers. A little help from outside might just stop the bug before it can infest everywhere.

[Sekt fault (the-pulse)]

I think this bug has been introduced by a design mistake concerning the function create_software_industry(). It should have a variable parameter list rather than a sole pcompany attribute.

[Lloyd Hardy (11811)]

Until someone starts talking to Microsoft users, Ubuntu will never be in the high street.

Talk to hosting companies and it'll be in hosting companies. *Newsflash: The general public don't use hosting companies*

If we do not market to a wider audience, market opinion will never swing in our favour. The most you can get is what you ask for - you will never be given nore.

If you actually want to do something instead of sittng around and complaining, get the debate: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=73132

[Lloyd Hardy (11811)]

Scrub that - join the marketing team:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam

[João Pio (joao-pio)]

This bug is especially evident in Portugal. Most computer stores are barely aware anything not related to windows.
Most large computer store atendants will look strangelly if you ask them anything about linux. That or they will say that store does not support Linux at all.

Don't fool yourselves.
Most Computer stores in my country sell counterfit copies of windows, and even tho most stores make you pay for fake goods no one cares about that, not even microsoft. Babies grow up spoon fed by windows and they will one day be spoon fed windows adults.

If at all possible this bug could have to do with the inability, or disconfort in most peoples mind that seems to tell them that Microsoft windows works and Linux might not.

There should be a Forum in which people would put their success stories about what they installed and how. What is supported and what isn't. This is missing in practicly all distros I've seen.
We in the linux world must make sure people can find out if their computer works in Ubuntu.
Marketing needs to be planned. If you market your solution just because you have it, then if you fail your image is burnt.

[Theo (launchpad-flame)]

My little girl is six years old and spends hours on the computer playing educational games. Unfortunately the games she is interested in are only available on Microsoft - so as long as the suppliers of such software do not have the motivation to supply for the linux market the bug will perpetuate. That said, my little boy will be getting a motherboard, chassis, power supply, hard disk, cd/dvd drive and a linux cd when he turns six :-)

[Boris de Laage (bbloup)]

I can reproduce it too, in France, in either small shops & big supermarkets.

I'm working on a bugfix for several years, with many, many people.

Maybe this one will take some time to hunt. But I feel we're on the way.

[Shane Volpe (shanevolpe)]

I was able to repeat this bug in rural western Pennsylvania (USA) as well. Furthermore we have public schools that have not one open-source program installed on their computers!

I know there are open source projects out there for schools but is there an open source how-to or step-by-step program for integrating open source programs into a public school system?
Its great to have the software but we need a way to educate the educators on how to implement and use the software!

We should also have a how-to attack plan: This would cover how someone (like me, an open source advocate) approaches a local school about using open source.

[Adam A. (musicman2059)]

There's only one thing I have to say about this bug:

"lol"

[Dan Watkins (oddbloke)]

I was able to reproduce in the UK. In fact, in one instance, I couldn't even get a PC with a blank HDD, nevermind with Linux on!

[Jerome S. Gotangco (jsgotangco)]

There is a big chance for the asian market to squash this bug. We can actally buy HP and IBM laptops with no Operating systems. Linux is currently making the news (along with Ubuntu) and UNDP-APDIP initiatives like the IOSN are helping to fix this bug.

[PDT (venpandita)]

I am able to reprodce it in Burma --- a South-East Asia country known for its main opposition leader and Nobel laureate, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi.

Our country has refused to sign the international copyright and patent laws up to now. So it is perfectly legal to use pirated software!(Mostly MS Windows and related products) Even MS, with its enormous legal team, cannot sue us!

There is almost no software industry here. PC clones are assembled and sold with pirated Windows, and any popular software you name, pre-installed by hardware vendors, who also undertake the responsibility of Windows help desk. All other software maintenance is done by users themseves by using manuals (pirated copies again!) and learning from private software courses.

However, things must change sooner or later. At the time when the International IP laws come into effective here, all computers in Burma would grind to a halt since very few would be able to afford license fees.

Who would help us to boot our computers at that time? Ubuntu, I hope.

[B Gates (udo-hoerhold)]

As far as I am concerned, this behavior works as expected. It should be marked as a feature, not a bug.

[Jonathan Carter (jonathan)]

If Steve Balmer can vow to kill Google, then I'm equally entitled to kill Microsoft. I will commit whatever free time I have to improve Ubuntu, and I won't rest until this bug is resolved.

[Linoman (linoman)]

I must ask a question, this bug that faces not only Ubuntu/Kubuntu etc but Linux in general what is it really caused by?

1) Is it caused by unfair practices by certian large businesses?
2) Is it caused by customers that do not know more about Linux?

We all know I guess that its caused by a combination of both. If Linux is to expand rapidly to the desktop user then more education is needed for the public. I live in South Africa (Western Cape) and here 99% of PC shops either just don't support Linux or for some reason have not heard of it.

Come on, lets educate people who do not know the joys of Linux and especially Ubuntu

[Sarangan Thuraisingham (tvsaru)]

I see this bug time to time. I am not talking about the average joe who doesn't even know what an OS is. But, I am talking about Computer Scientists. Yes, you heard me right. Fellow students in my Computer Science degree, are as addicted to Windows as Hippies were addicted to "LOVE" in the 60s ;-) . Our university(University of Southampton, UK), has invested a lot of time, money and effort into providing us with a room full of Linux PCs with latest hardware. Yet, we see students flocking to M$ Windows PCs.

Bug Fixes:

   1. User awareness/education - I am working on it. So far managed to convert my brother and four of my friends. Though, few revert to M$ often, due to hardware incompatibilities, with time these issues can be resolved.
   2. Advocate the fact the UBUNTU is free - Yes, your PC would be a lot cheaper if it wasn't for all the pre-installed software. May be with the saving you can afford better peripherals or even a high spec PC. As abdulmueid commented above[in bug#1's comments page], the use of Linux based computers is the only way for computers to become widely available in developing countries. Mmmm will they still be called developing countries then...
   3. Advertise in YELLOW Pages/Directory Listings for free Ubuntu consultations - LUGs are a good idea. But people are hesitant while venturing into the unknown(to them that is). So may be the LUGs can advertise, offering help in local news papers, TVs etc.
   4. Awareness initiatives - Government should allocate funds to create awareness among people. National Televisions should telecast programmes during prime time-slots, to advise people about the open source software. I think, people wouldn't want to break the law when there is a legal and free alternative. Why pirate MS Office when you can use Open Office? Why get all the spam, spy ware, virus?

Well, all this is my objectives for the future. I am just waiting for my chance. Until then I am just preparing myself and doing whatever I can to help.

"Small drops make the mighty ocean"

So do your bit to help....

-- Saru

[MauricioHernandez (mhz)]

In 2 opportunities I have visited the Technology Section of 3 big department stores in Chile (Falabella, Almacenes Paris and Ripley). I have requested to buy even the most powerful and expensive computer they have (either desktop or laptop) but with NO operating system.

After some minutes, the very motivated sales persons come back with sad face to inform me that their supervisors have not allowed the procedure because OS is already installed.

Incredible!

I suggest we organize the Ubuntu Request Day. What's that? Let's ask each ubuntu fan to go to a store one day (same for all over the world) and ask to buy a computer with Ubuntu (Kubuntu, Edubuntu, or maybe Debian installed).

Obviously, if by any case, the store agrees... we may have some excuses already planned :)

[Popa Adrian Marius (mapopa)]

We could ask vendors about machines without windows pre-installed
I have seen in my contry (Romania) that almost all laptops (90%)
are with windows home/pro already on them .
There are some vendors that give you choice :Acer and Siemens sell some models
with linux.

One intersting article related to this bug
"Early results of the (Dutch) Windows refund survey"
"Sometimes as a Linux user, you wish you could buy any computer with Linux preinstalled, or if that's not possible, just without an operating system, but that's not the reality. If that isn't possible, is it possible to buy any computer with Windows pre-installed, and then, return the unused Windows, and ask a refund for it? That's a question many non-Windows users ask themselves. The answer however, isn't clear to consumers. There's only one way to find out: ask your hardware manufacturer. Or do they neither know the answer? Time to find out."

http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/49036/index.html

[Nal (nalshdat)]

Ok I found a major part of this bug. I finaly confinced a friend to go to linux, in the form of ubuntu. He LOVED it. Couldn't stop talking about the speed and ease of use and all that. Then it happened. We went to install a game. When it didn't work he looked at me and asked how do I get my games working. I then told him for most games you can use Cedega or wine, but some don't work at all yet, you also need no cd cracks for some also. At the point he looked at me and said, wait you mean I have to buy a program to get most my games working..then some wont work..and some that do I have to use a no cd crack....Just install windows. I would rather have all my games working. So there you have it. We fix this gameing prob and we can get more users. Most that I see switch right back when they find out about games and linux. They dont want to have to install new stuf then hope their game is supported. If we can some how make it work out the box on all games like windows we will be set.

[Jason Woyak (woyakj)]

I completely agree with Nal's comment about games, with one slight change. I don't think the problem is getting games to work in Linux. I think the REAL problem is getting game designers to make a Linux version of their games (shipped on the SAME CD..) Why not? Just have 3 folders: DATA (for the game data files, Windows (for the windows runtimes) and Linux (for the Linux runtimes). That way save files from the games would transer easily, MORE people would buy the games (think of how much community support whichever company was the first to implement and advertise this would get!), and people that don't know any better could still just put in the CD and hit Install. Obviously there are A LOT of details to work out here, but I think that if Mark Shuttleworth wants to advance opensource, he should try kicking a large amount of money toward the first company like EA or Activision that would be willing to have static-compiled linux binaries of their games included on the CD. Even ONE of their popular games to start out. That game would sell MANY more copies that it otherwise would, and if it was implemented in such a way that followed software standards, EVERYONE would win (the game company who would sell more games and get LOTS of great PR on sites like Slashdot, the End User who would really get a fair choice of desktop os AND get to play the hot new game title, and the OSS community who would get a HUGE amount of exposure to people who would otherwise not be as interested). How about World of Warcraft?! My $0.02

[Bandit (bandit)]

This must be the biggest bug of all. I have been to many contries through out the world and have been to almost every major city in the USA. This is defently a confirmed bug.
M$ has plagued the entire world like a out of control virus spreading there software on the un-knowing. Their evil business practices have brought them market dominance and thus this bug must be eleminated.
I vote this bug must have the highest priority and I will also continue to assist in eleminating virus as well.

[Jim McCormick (rantman-2000)]

Present on my university campus, too. While a lot of the backend uses Mac OS X, most of the student-accessable computers are running some form of MS operating system. One lab offers an older version of Gentoo as an option, but it's the only place where I can use a free system on campus other than my dorm room. Furthermore, due to drastic price cuts (the school has a contract with Microsoft to allow their students onto the local "site license" for 10x the cost of media), there's little incentive for things to change.

I have been recommending free software to anyone who comes to me looking for computer help, and have even distributed LiveCDs of Ubuntu to anyone who comes to me for technical support in an effort to get people to consider leaving Windows.

[dwerf (douwe)]

Yep, in the Netherlands this is a major bug. The vast majority of system deals include the SMODNIM-system (get it? It's Window's newest nickname).

I'm amazed at how hard to kill this bug is. Most nonbelievers are totally focussed on the disadvantages of Linux, but I made my dad swap to Linux and I'm talking many unhappy SMODNIM-users into letting me install that system that is so good "and this is for free?"

People really liked Firefox and Thunderbird and really feel the difference and the vibe the open source community can give. SMODNIM should be very afraid, because people are switching!

[Tom Oldani (txo8933)]

Indeed, games are strongly affected by this bug. I would like to add a few suggestions. First off, go to garagegames.com, and buy some of the linux games. The games there are all very high quality despite being low-budget. Second, if you're a game developer, consider using a multi-platform OpenGL engine for your game, as opposed to DirectX. Third, if you're a linux developer, find a way to distribute programs in such a way as to not require a separate binary for every distro/processor combo out there! These files should be easy to use and install, and should not necessitate compiling. Some people might not want to release their source.

[Carlos Blanquer Bogacz (cblanquer)]

This generalised bug is persistent. Microsoft trains its salesforce to learn about GNU/Linux and use arguments against it.
As of the tasks to overcome the current situation I dare to propose:
1. make GNU/Linux and between them Ubuntu distributions be known using a ear-to-ear strategy
2. make Ubuntu distributions easy to configure and to update, for breaking the myth GNU/Linux requires technical or plenty-of-free-time users
3. ensure as many language tranlations as possible, giving the opportunity to feel confident by using an own language version to more people
4. make Ubuntu become widespread so that people know there is the possibility to choose - usually many do not even know that free sotware exists
5. focus on more "convertable" users:
5.1. business are not likely to switch easily but administrations or educational institutes might;
5.2. the younger seem to be more attracted than the elder; 5.3. emerging and poorer countries have more potential of growth if distributions are suitable to the hardware and telecoms options

And probably more, but we should focus on those at least.
In order to start, each of us can contribute to the distribution evolution, install at our homes, worksplaces if allowed and firends computers. This cold be the best advertisment campaign.

[Uwe Beutin (scrambler)]

In German schools it is becoming nightmarish... kids are actually taking so-called Computer Classes and the first courses they can get their hands on is M$ Excel and Word because that is, they learn, what a Computer is All About! It seems as we are rather losing the knowledge of what a computer actually is; for our kids do not ever grasp the fact that what they are learning is bullsh.. and has nothing to do with computers. So I believe this bug is even more serious than we might have imagined...

[Mantas Kriaučiūnas (mantas)]

Bug #29194 has Lithuanian translation of this bug, but bug #29194 is targeted to Baltic states (Lithuania and Latvia).
Also there is an issue with standards and document formats - government institutions and public sector shouldn't force users to use closed formats and non-free software, but currently lots of info in government institution web pages are only in closed document formats, like Microsoft Office (.doc or .xls).

[Andreas Simon (andreas-w-simon)]

Mark Shuttleworth worte:
"Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry, restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential, globally."

Uh, so is Rosetta, Malone, and the whole launchpad is holding back innovation too? ;-)

[nelwa (adriaan-nellen)]

There are many reasons that causes MS to dominate the software market. In my opinion the following issues must be addressed by the Open Source community before they can even consider to appeal to the masses.
<ol><li>User Friendliness - When have you ever had to execute a command in terminal to do something in Windows....commands are for geeks - write a visual app for everything</li><li>Third party software support - This will naturally follow after (1.) is implemented - but think of all the apps that gets used in a business environment that has no linux support - Adobe, Macromedia, etc</li><li>Games + Entertainment - Everyone who's ever got a new cellphone should have realised before that things don't really sell on their usefull features, but more on their entertainment related features</li></ol>Implement these things into Ubuntu, and it will appeal to the masses!

[nelwa (adriaan-nellen)]

here follows my post again without html tags:

There are many reasons that causes MS to dominate the software market. In my opinion the following issues must be addressed by the Open Source community before they can even consider to appeal to the masses.

1. User Friendliness - When have you ever had to execute a command in terminal to do something in Windows....commands are for geeks - write a visual app for everything

2. Third party software support - This will naturally follow after (1.) is implemented - but think of all the apps that gets used in a business environment that has no linux support - Adobe, Macromedia, etc

3. Games + Entertainment - Everyone who's ever got a new cellphone should have realised before that things don't really sell on their usefull features, but more on their entertainment related features.

In conclusion: Implement these things into Ubuntu, and it will appeal to the masses!

[Markus Kienast (elias1884)]

The GAMERS hold the key!
If you have the gamer, you have them all!

Why is that?

People are not religous about their OS (well most are not). A bunch of people who are satisfied with office apps already traded their windows for Linux because it gave them an ADVANTAGE.

The have all software for free, it just works out of the box, they don't have to worry about the damn viruses anymore and therefore the endless Windows reinstalles they had to perform are history.

* But the share of people who solely use their PC for office stuff is relatively small.
* The share of the PCs that are solely used by that kind of people is even smaller.

* However, PCs usually are used by the whole family and the most skilled one administers it.
* And the most skilled one is the gamer in the family, not the office user.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So, if you have the gamer, you have the whole family!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So give the gamer an ADVANTAGE and he will switch, no questions asked! And he will be happy to teach how to use Linux to his family as long as he gets to user ADVANTAGE in return.

Make Linux THE MLTIMEDIA and GAMER OS on the market and the market is yours!

No need for awareness campaigns, education, ...
The games is capable of finding the info on the net and he will tell the others! He is the gatekeeper! He is the opinion maker!

[Markus Kienast (elias1884)]

I found a poll here about what is the most important kind of app for new users http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=73132

But this is not a helpfull question to ask. This is just to make your self feel better, because you know the most important is office apps and we are good in that.

The question to ask is:
What does prevent you from switching to Linux?

Religion?
Learning something new?
Non-availability of MS Office?
Non-availability of certain Apps?
Which one exactly?
Minor-availability of Games?
Bad gaming performance?
To much hassle to make the Games work?

And you publish this poll in online magazines of certain peer groups.

[magilus (magilus)]

elias: I had the same thoughts. The problem is that gamers say "I will go to Linux when my fav. games have Linux support". The game devs say "If our customers use Linux, we will give our games Linux support."

That is the problem. So maybe the advantages in developing games for linux should be told to the game devs like: Improved stability (because the game has to compile under different compilers) and so on

An other option would be to make something like Cedega, just easier and better, to release it under the GPL and to integrate it into Ubuntu.

[Nicholas Wheeler (dragoncow2)]

I am currently attending the FOSE conference, so as to address this bug at a US government level.

[DarkMageZ (darkmagez)]

This bug is currently being allowed by the U.S government, due to the fact that they cannot force open-source developers to include backdoor's into *nix. (Notice how the U.S didn't put any sanctions against microsoft for being a monopoly?)

The reason why the U.S government wants this ability to enforce back-door's on 90%+ of the worlds computers is due to the fact they are working on world domination. (http://www.loosechange911.com)

Also, if alot of the Linux Distro's were to merge (reducing the number from 300+ to about 30), then big manufactors of pc's would start to loose the excuse of there being tooo many linux distro's for them to choose. Also, this would help focus the efforts of the opensource community into making 30 or so REALLY GOOD linux distro's, instead of lots and lots of half-there or almost there distros.

[rysiek (mikiwoz)]

Easily reproductible in Poland, although there seems to be a move to Linux in the laptop market (quite surprisingly).
Luckily enough, a whole lotta computers aren't being bought in the big stores, but rather in the small ones, where the user can choose every single option of his new PC - including the pre-installed OS.

P.S.
Guys, this bug is, like, almost 2 years old, and still unfixed! Get a move-on! ;)

[Raichu (marmaladedoot)]

I have dual boot at home. My four year old kid asked me, "Dad, can I have a Linux account?" Maybe there's hope for the next generation!

[Warbo (warbo)]

This is definetly an education issue. People use excuses like "m$ office doesn't work on Linux", but what about OpenOffice? Well, the problem is that people don't ask the REAL FUNDAMENTAL question about computers - What do I want to do?
They should forget about programs, OS, architecture and EVERYTHING. This way you focus on "I want to make documents and read email" then you can say "Do you want £100 windoze, or free Linux?", then "Do you want 3GHz, 64bit, 2GB RAM PC or 400MHz PC off eBay?" If you go to somewhere like PC World and you say "I want to play games" they will try and sell you a bleeding-edge PC system with windoze xp on it. Tell them you want to browse the web - they sell you a bleeding-edge PC system with windoze xp on it. They make the most money this way, and also there are not that many cheap, low-end computers being made anymore (except embedded, but then they add extras like tiny size which puts the price back up). If there is a slower computer out there, like one designed for thin client use at less than 500MHz which can be sold as an office PC with a free OS then this will be popular.
As far as gaming there is the same fundamental question, it is not a matter of "I have to pay for another program to use my windoze games?" you just just shout very loudly at them "Free Linux + £9 Cedega = £9, £100 windoze = £100. It's cheaper to use Cedega!"
Also, if there was a great portable media computer out there (like the Cowon A2, find it on linuxdevices.com) that SAID it was Linux based then it would be great. The iPod is covered in Apple logos, and I know many people who have switched to Mac because their iPod integrates easily. Linux is all over the place, but because it is so customisable it is usually just in the background with no mention. Sell a Linux media layer as a Linux media player, integrate it easily with Linux and maybe even include a LiveCD and Install CD then you've got a winner (if people fork out money on a brand new architecture because their iPod works with it think how many will install a free OS (dualbooting should be easy to do) on their CURRENT computer to access their all-singing-all-dancing Linux media device!
Anyway, those are my opinions. To anyone looking for something easy to do to persuade people just goet the best looking system you can (XGL, Firefox, etc.) on a laptop with the lowest specs possible and let people see you using the time-saving features of the software. Make sure you have CD images on the hard drive and a CDR drive and discs - when they ask you where you got this thing just tell them to buy Nero and how to write an image. Then right-click on the image icon, select "Write to disc" and say "Or you could just do this."

[laggerzero (laggerzero)]

The bug has an even uglier side on society as a whole. The average Joe out there has now completely entangled the two terms hardware and software. I have noticed this trend for awhile now and it has to do with the way things are marketed.

In a linux environment, problems are not generally referred to as “the computer is acting up” but as the Operating System or the piece of software in general has an issue.

In dark and sinister world of microsoft everything is referenced to the word computer. “Make your computer run faster”, “Your Computer might be at risk”. Phrases like those continue to dumb down society. It kind of irritates me when I hang out with friends and they say “Oh my computer is acting up” when all they need is flash installed.

The point I'm trying to make is that by using the term “Computer” to reference every problem has made the world more closed minded in general. If someone hears something other then what they normally hear they tend to get confused and scared. Try talking to someone that doesn't know a lot about computers about linux or any other operating system and you will almost always get a blank stare out of them. I'm not saying we should dumb down linux the way Microsoft has dumbed down windows and thus the entire PC user base. What would be good is a complete in depth guide to what linux is in plain english (or whatever language of the area is) words what linux is, why it is better then windows, and most importantly, why people should use it!

A big solution to the bug is education. If people are educated about the choices they can make more people would probably switch over. The only problem is getting the message out and making it appear in a way that everyone can understand.

[Vijay Kumar Mateti (vijaymateti)]

This is a Major issue that we people are facing these days. I'm a die hard supporter to fix the Bug #1. M$ may be developing some cutting edge technologies and may the having the best brains, but these things doesn't matter much and what matters most is the freedom. These proprietary software are restricting our freedom to learn, freedom to share and freedom to distribute. India is a developing nation and I don't think that people in our country are rich enough to buy proprietary software. I'm a die hard supporter of GNU philosophy and I wish that Ubuntu is gonna put this thing to reality. I'm successful to certain extent to propagate Ubuntu in my family, friends and in my college. I believe that one day we are going to attain this freedom. There is lots of myth that's still in the brains of the people and I've seen Ubuntu just blown them in very first time. The future if Free and Open!

[Nightwing (deadmatrix)]

Hardcore confirmation of the bug in Canada. Except we got it almost as bad as the USA does. Here we're either non existant [Linux/BSD/misc O/S users] or we're dual-booting, or swapping back to XP or worst of all -- PIRATING WINDOWS VISTA! Even after having swapped to Linux or BSD. My youngest brother comes to mind as a victum of this bug. He's running WinXP build 2600 stock, no Win Updates or anything, and he refuses to even upgrade XP, or to go back to Ubuntu or anything. Way back when Whistler just got out of Release Candidates and made RTM, he was at least playing around with nothing but FreeBSD R-4.9, BeOS and QNX and such.. Every single store I've EVER been in that sells computers in today's market is pureley Windows XP Service Pack 2 be it home edition or proffessional. At least Wal-Mart almost broke the trend. I remember reading on Neowin.net and I THINK Slashdot.org too that Walton's Market Place was trying to sell computers with Linspire [Formaley known as Lindows OS] on them but it didn't really take off I think.. Never really heard more on it. And now... The dark side lures everyone and corrupts there judgement..

FIX FOUND:
From Free-DOS
A:\> fdisk /mbr
A:\> deltree
A:\> format C:
Format Complete - 100%.
A:\> reboot.bat

[Insert Open Source Operating System of Choice here.]

Hit [Enter] and follow on screen instructions to Install.

[laggerzero (laggerzero)]

A postitive progress on the bug!

I was in class the other day and my professor recommended Ubuntu to the class!! it might not mean much now but the word is getting out. People are starting to get interested in lunux and the massive hardware requirements of Vista might be the perfect oppertunity for linux to rise through the ranks.

The big caller of vista is the 3d effects in the windows. Such effects in windows require a very powerful 3d accelerator (Radeon 9800 Pro +/ Geforce 5900 +). Linux with XGL on the horrizon doesn't require that powerful of an accelerator (I've gotten XGL running flawlessly on my Geforce 4 GO 4400 64MB). So for the eye candy lover that doesn't want to by a new comp to run Vista, linux might be the answer!

[Patrik_L (pcfixaren)]

Many pepole on this forum has talked about gaming but one thing that no one has mentioned is the fact that most modern games needs OpenGL to run.

In order to get these Open GL games to run they need drivers from either ATI or Nvidia corporation because that is what most gamers use on there computers. Neither ATI nor nvidia has made there drivers awalible as opensource so they can't be installed by default by ubuntu because ubuntu is 100% free software.

I think this is the biggest issue of all the mentioned issues if the awarige gamer will ever start to use ubuntu as a gaming plattform

Today the drivers for Nvidia are awalible from ubuntu repositories but when installing them you need to hack the /etc/x11/xfree86config. this is not wery user friendly for the awarige user.

I thnk this issue needs to be solved before advertising ubuntu asa gaming plattform because otherwise the users that arewilling totry ubuntu willreturn towinXP thinking that linux is way to hard to learn.

I can think of two posible solutions to solve this issue

1. Convince nvidia and ATI to make there drivers open source so that they can be included in ubuntu

this can be tricky but if enuff peapole starts to mailing them about opensource drivers? who knows.

2. make ubutu less restricted about 100% free software and include the drivers anyway so that things work "out of the box " for gamers.
there are other distros out there who has the nvidia drivers preinstalled xandros, korora xgl, mepis etc

[LGB [Gábor Lénárt] (lgb)]

A workaround for this bug for a special case: let's install Ubuntu for your father if you ask for some introduction using The Internet, especially if he does not know anything on computers so it's up to you what he will use in the future. This workaround worked for me.

[Ptero-4 (ptero-4)]

I'm from Panamá. This bug was at borderline critical both here in Panamá and in Costa Rica with almost everybody using Windoze XP from schools, offices and web shops.
But There's some good news folks. Although My friends and me are still working on a bug fix, my friends and me with the help of a friend who works as a MacStore salesman found a workaround for this issue. We began to offer cheap G3 Macs with both OS X and Ubuntu at schools, offices and web shops, and also we convinced the MacStore training staff about giving training cources about computer basics and GNU/linux as well as giving free ubuntu (x86 and PPC) CD's to those who attend those training courses. This isn't a perfect fix of course, but at least it have decreased amount of victims of that bug down to 30% of the population, buying time for a real bugfix to be released.
Workaround recomended specially in countries where this bug is dangerouslly widespread.

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

That's a pretty sharp workaround. Especially if you are deploying it on
thin client networks using old Power Macs in schools!

[Lionel Dricot (ploum-deactivatedaccount)]

Today is the official announcement of the Canonical-Microsoft fusion to fight Apple marketshare.

I suggest to mark this bug as "Rejected" (as we are now all MS contributors) and open a new one against Apple marketshare.

Congratulations to everyone involved !

[Jonathan Carter (jonathan)]

That's a real lame April fools joke!

[Jenda Vančura (jenda)]

I hear the Marketing Team is working on a fix - let's keep our eyes open!

[Mickey (michael.z)]

This bug breaks all patches that have been tried so far. Does anyone have a fix to this bug? Esp a newer deb that would be able to remedy the situation.

antritrust-1.0-dsrg-ubuntu1.deb (fails at bought politician error while it reloads the database)

antritrust-2.0-dsrg-ubuntu3.deb is almost working but could swing either way.

On serious note try coming into any store! The lineup of Microsoft products is everywhere. We need specifically linux hardware. So to make less hacking around windows only hardware.

Eh, taking a deep Electronics course hope could build eventually some new hardware linux only platform. Microsoft be afraid, be very afraid! if my knowledge gets strong.

[Teo (teo.ubuntu)]

Recently I had to buy new PC, because my old one crashed. And I had some strange observations. There is no single PC on the market without preinstalled Windows OS. Furthermore if you look at the web-sites of PC manufactures all of them recommend Windows as OS. You may prove it yourself. I interpret this as defense, because M$ is feeling the Linux power.

I am based in Germany, Europe and I am a software developer. Unfortunately I am still newbie in Linux world, but I am learning. Till now I have developed software exclusively for Windows. I know its advantages, but I really would like to get involved in open-software. The M$ monopoly would not lead to anything good.

At home I have a dual-boot system. Also I installed Ubuntu on my girlfriend's laptop and was pleasantly surprised when she asked me to leave Ubuntu as default boot OS.

My appeal is: don't worry, be happy! There's hope!

[wyo (otto-wyss)]

Cross-platform (http://wyoguide.sf.net/index.php?page=Cross-platform.html) probably won't fix this bug completely but it's definitely a first step.

See also http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/54009/index.html

O. Wyss

[Tomi Urankar (tomi0)]

Unfortunetly its the same here in Slovenia. Here in Slovenia I even had to argue with the saler in a PC STORE that I want my notebook FLAT. Without any OS on it!

[Eduardo Cereto (dudus)]

I second that. Here in Brazil you often have to buy proprietary software to get your hardware. Even if it's a major producer like HP

[Rui Castro (rui.castro)]

This is in fact an annoying bug that keeps appearing all the time, even after we install ubuntu over and over in every machine we can get our hands on. We need to keep fighting this awful bug by installing ubuntu in more and more machines, especially they have windows installed :)

[Christopher_Linux (chris1010)]

This bug is spreading like a virus! It has taken over florida! EVERY SINGLE STORE IN FLORIDA. I asked a representative at Tiger Direct if they had any computers with ubuntu or free software installed and they said "To tell you the truth, linux sucks and if we used ubuntu people would return thier PC's." This was so sad I told him he was completely wrong. I then asked him if he has ever used linux and he said....no.

[oscarnavas (onavas)]

The bug has considerely decreased its potential damage here in Colombia, actually more people understands that free software initiatives gives them estability and freedom of mind. Anyway piracy have never let Microsoft have a meaningful "Market Share".

[Geeman (geemanuk)]

until ubuntu gets simplified things like file sharing accross a home network, this bug is going to stay.

Ask your mother/sister/girlfriend if they can share a folder with you on your computer. Can you explain how to do it on the phone? No...then its too complicated. Can you explain how to share files /printers folders accross a network in windows? Yes very easily.

 No manually editing any text files or reading 1000 line documents...

Ubuntu should focus on simplifying common tasks if it wants to gain market share

[Erich Pawlik (erichpawlik)]

I agree with Geeman. However, there are two other issues:

- As the developers at openoffice.org have learned, compatibility with the Microsoft world is a critical success factor for any initiative planning to give Microsoft a fight. Launchpad is full of bugs affecting compatibility issues and those issues pop up on ubuntuforums, but according to discussions on launchpad, Ubuntu developers don't seem to consider those issues as high priority.
A point in case: In current Dapper, Windows networking has been broken as a whole for quite some time (the root course could be a problem in winbind, see bug #39990). As of today, access to network shares and printers via smb is not possible and firefox aborts if I try to access a web site on a Windows machine running apache.

- Another problem is peripherals - the choice is much more limited than in Windows and it is a pain to install drivers not shipped with Ubuntu.(look for Minolta printers in the bug list on launchpad).

Regards

Erich

[makgun (mustafa-akgun)]

Yes, same bug still working here in Turkey. But we are still working against to bug. We send over 30.000 pre-installed linux for desktop and over 2.000 installed linux for server computers to people and companies. to fix it is not easy to make free linux distro. (not enough i mean) Because people addicted to this bug and computer seller fall in love with this bug. There is law against to this bug. But law practicers is on bug-side.That is all going...

[Alan Tam (at)]

A lot of people have given wrong points here. This is not a bug to promote "Linux is the heavens", or "Windows is the hell". This is a anti-non-free bug --- free is the heavens and non-free is the hell.

If all games are available with Linux binary, and every gamer uses Linux, this bug is still unfixed. However, if Microsoft make Windows available under open source license, this bug is not far from being fixed.

If you are unsure, go back to the original text again. It is not about majority of the people using a "foolish" OS, or no choice of OS on a new computer purchased, or the world's monotonicity on OS.

Bug 1, in Mark's words, is about non-free software "holding back innovation in the IT industry". Think twice: if Mac OS X became the dominant OS, would you be happy?

If you do not agree with the philosophy of this bug, please fork your ideas into another bug.

Of course I strongly agree that this anti-non-free bug is more difficult to fix the (mostly perceived) anti-Windows bug, but are you happy with fixing a bug by creating another bug with similar severity?

[Bjorn Tipling (bjorn-ambientchill)]

Beyond just observing the bug has anyone tried to fix it? Has anyone tried to 'sell' Ubuntu to retail stores?

[Daniel Matysiak (dmatysiak)]

Another thing we can't forget is media playing out of the box. I've installed Ubuntu on traditional Windows users' computers and while they were happy with the lack of viruses and gator-like adware, they were also displeased with the lack of media playing ability. Out of the box, Ubuntu (totem!) has so far not been configured to play many video formats, and the typical user will not know how to get it working (nor should they have to). Additionally, the necessary plugins are not installed for Firefox by default to play video. While the lack of Flash is okay, since it is easily installable and Windows has not, to my knowledge, been shipping with Flash, something like video and music should come by default. How much of this is because of Ubuntu's policies, I don't know. However, I do think much progress has been made in the right direction. I admit that this may not be an easy problem to solve. But until this is addressed, casual users will probably be more likely to switch back to Windows.

[Robert Nasiadek (robzon)]

Extremely critical in Poland. It took me a loong time to find a suitable notebook without non-free software preinstalled.
Fortunately, the company I work for is working on the bug. We hope to start selling Ubuntu-enabled PCs soon after Dapper is released :-)

[Dennis Kaarsemaker (dennis)]

Sadly, Breezy failed to correct this, so this has to be rejected. We'll have to hope that Dapper will improve the situation :)

[Matt (m4tt1muspr1m3)]

unsubscribe

On 5/2/06, Dennis Kaarsemaker <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> Sadly, Breezy failed to correct this, so this has to be rejected. We'll
> have to hope that Dapper will improve the situation :)
>
> ** Changed in: Ubuntu Breezy
> Severity: Critical => Normal
> Priority: High => None
> Status: Confirmed => Fix Released
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
>

[DarkMageZ (darkmagez)]

there appears to be some serious work being done on this bug in cuba, they appear to have even fixed it.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23300

you will have to talk to your political people in your country's to see if they will apply the bugfix.

[casualprogrammer (casualprogrammer)]

This is not actually a bug,

as long as Ubuntu ( as well as other Distributions ) don't get their homework done, Microsoft is rightfully in the lead.

I tried Ubuntu Dapper from flight 5 now, everytime I have fixed something, the next upgrade breaks it and more.

Currently trying to get some usability out of beta2 ( why anyone should call it a beta esvapes me though )

[Popa Adrian Marius (mapopa)]

We can attract some users by show-ing how good is ubuntu (even running on windows)
without messing with partitions or if they are afraid to try livecd version.

Try Ubuntu Virtual Machine appliance
"safe browsing you can do it on windows too" http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/directory/browserapp.html
http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/ubuntu.html

ps: I used it on my amd 64 bit machine to make flash work in firefox browser

[Scott Beamer (angrykeyboarder)]

I can confirm this bug as well. It not only affects purchases at your local PC store but it also affects most online PC purchases *cough*www.abs.com*cough*.

This is highly critical and has been around for ages.

Just my $.02...

[Ion (ionlng)]

The easiest way to fix this bug would be to create advantageous conditions and to persuade programmers and companies to create more programs for Ubuntu. Maybe, a reasonable step would be to provide such companies with the necessary amount of Ubuntu CDs along with the programs they created for this software? Thus, even if the user does not have Ubuntu OS installed, he/she would still buy the program.

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

Did we receive any patches for this from Microsoft? It says "Hilf [US-based platform strategy technology manager at Microsoft] added that his team has contributed patches to the open-source community ..." here: http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/software/0,39044164,39360024,00.htm

anyway, if we can get PC sellers to pre-install Ubuntu widely, or manufacturers to provide drivers/specifications for Linux, I'm confident that we'll be able to close this bug soon...

[Nal (nalshdat)]

Untill we can Get game makers to support Linux equal to how they support Windows, and get all or most of all the current and dated games working 100% on Linux in a very easy to do way. The bug will still stand no matter how much other advancements linux has. Like I said before, I have about 30 to 40 people at work and about 6 friends that would glady go to ubunut, they love it....but wont because they can not play their games easy or not at all.

[Sense Egbert Hofstede (sense)]

This is confirmed for the Netherlands. Most of the computer-shops don't even have Linux! Only Windhoos(in dutch it is a word for hurricane(but it is much more smaller)!

[Paul Flint (flint)]

Here in Vermont, we are all about changing Amerika. My best advice on this bug Mark is keep building good software. I suspect that if you do this the bug will go away on its own.

Kinda odd for a bug!

[Eric (kb3hkg-deactivatedaccount)]

Maryland isn't any better, I only ever saw Linux in a store once and it
was Suse. I have become a Linux advocate especially for Ubuntu. Are
there any _unique_ ideas as to how we can continue to spread the good word?

Paul Flint wrote:
> Here in Vermont, we are all about changing Amerika. My best advice on
> this bug Mark is keep building good software. I suspect that if you do
> this the bug will go away on its own.
>
> Kinda odd for a bug!
>
>

[Jonathan Carter (jonathan)]

On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 17:43 +0000, Eric wrote:
> Maryland isn't any better, I only ever saw Linux in a store once and it
> was Suse. I have become a Linux advocate especially for Ubuntu. Are
> there any _unique_ ideas as to how we can continue to spread the good word?

This time of the year, I gather all excess Ubuntu CD's that friends have
(just before the release of a new version). Then I take them, and leave
them in public places (malls, libraries, etc). I put them down at
strategic places where someone will definitely take it, even if it's a
shop assistant. At least that might get them to use Ubuntu (or even
install Firefox/OOo from the live cd) which will get them interested in
Ubuntu. I remember with the Warty CD's, I strategically places more than
300 CD's in a very busy mall in Bellville.

MHUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

-Jonathan

[Scott Beamer (angrykeyboarder)]

On 05/22/2006 11:19 AM, * Jonathan Carter spake thusly:
> On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 17:43 +0000, Eric wrote:
>> Maryland isn't any better, I only ever saw Linux in a store once and it
>> was Suse. I have become a Linux advocate especially for Ubuntu. Are
>> there any _unique_ ideas as to how we can continue to spread the good word?
>
> This time of the year, I gather all excess Ubuntu CD's that friends have
> (just before the release of a new version). Then I take them, and leave
> them in public places (malls, libraries, etc). I put them down at
> strategic places where someone will definitely take it, even if it's a
> shop assistant. At least that might get them to use Ubuntu (or even
> install Firefox/OOo from the live cd) which will get them interested in
> Ubuntu. I remember with the Warty CD's, I strategically places more than
> 300 CD's in a very busy mall in Bellville.
>
> MHUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>

I'd not be surprised if the majority of them just got tossed, though.

--
 Scott
www.angrykeyboarder.com
©2006 angrykeyboarder™ & Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved

[GPLed (sunnysachanandani)]

This bug is highly prevelant in India. I am trying to fix the bug by converting people to Linux one at a time, but progress is unfortunately, painfully slow.

[Eric (kb3hkg-deactivatedaccount)]

As is progress almost everywhere. I saw they made a boxed set of ubuntu in
Germany, how do we get this elsewhere?

On 5/26/06, GPLed <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> This bug is highly prevelant in India. I am trying to fix the bug by
> converting people to Linux one at a time, but progress is unfortunately,
> painfully slow.
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
>

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

If there's a lot of demand for it in Germany, we'll figure that out :-)

[Justizin (launchpad-jryan)]

Dude, this bug has been around for years, I'm glad to see someone is finally doing something about it!

Interestingly enough, the incarnation of this problem is different in Japan. When I worked for TurboLinux, our 4.0 Workstation release outsold Windows 98 in retail outlets for several months, if I recall correctly. Do we need a separate bug for retail use cases?

It is worth noting that, every now and again, users need to upgrade their desktop software. Maybe there is a bit of natural selection in the fact that Windows users in some cases have to go through a rejection process. If this is the case, it may be helpful for our cause for computers to ship with Windows.

[Irvin Piraman (ippiraman)]

Only recently, PC shops in our province in the Philippines have started to pre-install Ubuntu. This is after the move of a region-wide organization to adopt free and open source software in businesses, schools, and government. However, end-users tend to reformat the computer and install mostly pirated copies Windows. What I see in this bug is that the solution does not just depend on PC retailers or marketing but also through training and education of the end-users. This way both ends meet.

[borneoo (borneoo)]

Of course, many things cause this bug,only one from me:

The new computers are even cannot work with other OS because of the missing drives, even there is no a serious Hardare Compatible database where I can find supported hw-s before buy.
If it would be, and would be good, searchable, it would improve
the selling of those who are in, and maybe the others would loose this market....

so it could be a general on for linux/bsd/....

thx

[Richard Elkins (texadactyl)]

Awwwwww ... the original post could have been an enjoyable "one-liner".

M$ is here for the long haul, for better and worse -- mostly the latter but they keep moving the desktop "bar" so that Linux and MacOSX have to play desktop-catchup. Its the only way that M$ will be dethroned someday -- no empires last forever, eh Europeans?

The biggest desktop enjoyment holes right now IMHO: (1) ease of multimedia installation and usage although the latest Firefox MediaPlayerConnectivity extension goes a long way to help Internet access and (2) quality of video and audio streaming.

Thoughts?

[6205 (6205-reactivated-deactivatedaccount)]

maybe ubuntu needs to be more visible to ordinary people, like firefox or openoffice. we should try to make some adds, or create campaign like was "spread firefox", convince people to try it instaead of other distros, because this is the best linux distribution to date and i'm sick of all those suse-chameleon-fetishists with all those 9.5 of 10 reviews of new bugy suse shit 10.1 - SPREAD UBUNTU !

[Bruce Cowan (bruce89-deactivatedaccount)]

First step would be to remove those awful "Designed for windows xp" crap things. Mind you it's ironic that if it really were "designed for windows xp", then how come it runs Ubuntu?

[hellfire (hellfire7-gmail)]

This bug is widely spread here in Bulgaria too. The problem concerns not only PCs but addon hardware too. For example several months ago i went to a PC store to buy a TV card. I asked if it was supported in linux and the answer i got was "The drivers on the disc will do all the job". Needless to say there were no drivers for linux on the disc which meant that the salesman didn`t know about linux or didn`t care about it (luckly i managed to get the card working very easily). Apparently this is the salesmen`s generic answer when asked about linux because when later i went to buy a MP3 player and asked if it would work with linux i got the same reply - "The drivers on the disk will do the job". The problem is especially serious in our educational program. All the computers in our schools are with Windows installed by deffault and most of the teachers either don`t care about linux or don`t know much about it. I`ve heard of several cases when students tried to persuade their teachers to use open source OS in school with little or no success. There are however exceptions. For example several months ago i attended to a conference about open source software in a school in my home town Sliven and there seemed to be great interest both from the students and from the teachers. So there is hope after all that this bug wil be solved.

[Todd Lindner (mail-toddlindner)]

Oh no! Only 9 hours until the dapper release, and there is STILL an outstanding critical bug!!!

[biffster (biffster)]

On 5/31/06, Todd Lindner <email address hidden> wrote:
> Oh no! Only 9 hours until the dapper release, and there is STILL an
> outstanding critical bug!!!

What's the critical bug? I just upgraded to Dapper last night, and
some things are definitely wonky. I can't boot into the .15-k7 kernel
at all, but the .15-386 kernel works without a problem. I thought that
was very odd. And XFCE didn't import settings for the Panel, so I have
to manually fix that.

Otherwise, everything seems very nice.

--
Michael Fierro <email address hidden>
Y! Messenger: miguelito_fierro AIM: mfierro1
http://biffster.org http://weightjournal.com
---
Weapons at best are tools of bad omen,
Loathed and avoided by those of the Way.
  - Tao Te Ching, Ch. 31, Blakney

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

> What's the critical bug?

two that I see (and not counting how gksudo gets confused by caps passwords), they are:
bug #37773
bug #47775

and two unconfirmed:
bug #44112
bug #46060

And of course, this one :P

Reference: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs

[Alan Tam (at)]

We all know that bugs that occur only in some specific hardware are difficult to be identified and fixed. We know that there are not many ubuntu developers. Given a certain amount of developers, only a fixed amount of work can be done. If a bug really cannot be fixed before the release, then it will not be. Critical bugs get higher priority, but it is still possible they cannot be fixed soon enough. This happens to every Linux distribution. This happens to Microsoft and Apple.

After dapper is released, changes can go to dapper-updates. It will not get the CD fixed, but this is the best we can do. The developers are as unhappy as you to see critical bugs shipped. Please stop spamming this bug for such unrelated issue.

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

> Posted by Alan Tam at 2006-06-01 04:52:58 UTC

First time I got such a flame in launchpad :confused:

My intent was not to spam, but but to add my observations to the discussion btw "Posted by Todd Lindner at 2006-05-31 14:47:00 UTC"
and "Posted by biffster at 2006-05-31 23:05:11 UTC"

Sorry for any inconvenience. As for

> After dapper is released, changes can go to dapper-updates.

afaik, releases don't get bug fixes ( http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu )

hmmm, so in addition to my (and others') previous suggestions of pre-installing ubuntu to sold computers and better driver support, microsoft's share may be hurt as well if ubuntu starts shipping bug fixes just like the security fixes are shipped as updates. But, would this render "releases" obsolete somehow? I'm not sure?

well, this was my favorite thing during the Dapper development cycle: when you do dist-upgrades during development, you saw bugs (that you weren't even aware of) fixed...

[Vladimer Sichinava (alinux)]

http://essedi.it/ This is computer on-line market, very popular in Italy, that sell computers with Ubuntu/Kubuntu or Windows XP preinstalled :) That's great I think! (Great to have 2 ways!)

[Erik van Luxzenburg (evanluxzenburg)]

I can agree with all above, here in the Netherlands, nearly every computer store, even the internet-based ones sell Windows pre-installed. There are some Linux Computer sellers, but they remain obscure. Also, trying to get printed info or advertisements on Linux, media-coverage is all hard to find!

My suggestion is a bug fix, but that might need some huge investments, as I guess we have to start some bizz by ourselves!

[Andy Kniss (akniss)]

I can confirm this bug also, but I have figured out a workaround until the bug can be squashed permanently.

1) Go to https://shipit.ubuntu.com/ and register for an account.
2) Request several pressed Ubuntu Dapper CDs.
3) Wait 4 to 6 weeks.
4) Give them to your friends, show them the LiveCD and then help them install the system.

ALTERNATE WORKAROUND:
1) Go to http://www.ubuntu.com/download and download the appropriate ISO.
2) Burn the ISOs to CDs.
3) Go to step 4 above.

[chrisblack (chris-wccp)]

I've seen this bug appear all over Ireland - thanks Andy for the solution/workaround..... I'll pass this information on...

Unfortunately your Alternate Workaround, isn't much of an option for a lot of places in this part of the world, as our wonderful govt and telephone suppliers, can't get their act together to supply us with a decent broadband infrastructure!!!!

[Allen Graham (allenggraham)]

Violent ! here in Canada, Microsoft prevails. Thanks to large infusions of cash to the previous Liberal Gov't, nothing but Microsoft product can be found.
That gov't chose to install Microsoft product instead of superior, less expensive Canadian software.

The only real advantage is that it is now much easier to cheat on your income tax thanks to "buggy" (is that as in horse and buggy?) Microsoft shitoftware.

[EriktheUnready (erik-pe)]

Started on a bugfix, by sending out all new PC's without M$ preloaded with Ubuntu. The main problem here, however is that the nice PC cases & branded PC's have to sell with M$-xp....
Someone higher up is kissing bill's toes.
The nice thing about Ubuntu is I've tested it on all our laptops and it works like a charm! Now to sell these ubuntu-powered laptops to government!!!

[Allen Graham (allenggraham)]

Hi, any luck pre-loading UBUNTU onto laptops ?

Allen

On 6/1/06, EriktheUnready <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> Started on a bugfix, by sending out all new PC's without M$ preloaded with
> Ubuntu. The main problem here, however is that the nice PC cases & branded
> PC's have to sell with M$-xp....
> Someone higher up is kissing bill's toes.
> The nice thing about Ubuntu is I've tested it on all our laptops and it
> works like a charm! Now to sell these ubuntu-powered laptops to
> government!!!
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
>

--
http://adventures-with-the-rascals.blogspot.com/

[Jeff Frazier (j-m-frazier)]

A possible work around for this bug isCo-Op dollars for the small retailer.
A custom Pc builder can be *encouraged* to provide a product with a GNU/Linux Os Vs. a bug infested, Closed Source, Money Hungry B$ operating system. Co-Op dollars can be an effective *Bug* Spray ;-)

[nLIter (blogger2)]

Do not despair folks.
 Although it looks like a pandemic (ref. Chicken Flu), some very adept people have come up with a very potent drug(medicine)

A team headed by Dr. Shuttleworth has been working very intensely for the last six months on a project called 'Ubuntu'.

90% of affected victims have been cured in
a matter of a few hours, after taking this amazing medicine and simultaneously sniffing a drug called 'Synaptic'.

[xtsbdu3reyrbrmroezob (xtsbdu3reyrbrmroezob)]

root@livecd:~# WIN32_CHECK=$(cfdisk -P s /dev/hda | grep "NTFS" | cut -d " " -f 2); if [ $WIN32_CHECK == "" ]; then echo -e "\nYou are not infected :-)\n"; else echo -e "\n@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@\nYou are infected with Virus.Win32.Gates.NT...Install Ubuntu immediately\n@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@"; fi

[kellemes (kellemes)]

I really think this is a serious bug, for me mainly because of the lack of good alternatives for certain Windows software, the amount of good and easy to use software for Windows I simply can't find on Linux.

There are stil a couple of reasons for me to boot Windows from time to time..
1- Gaming (Tuxracer? are you kidding?)
2- Dreamweaver (please, don't talk Quanta or NVU)
3- Delphi (what happened with Kylix!?)

If we want to fix this bug we need to provide the Windows application- and webdeveloper with IDE's on the same level as the IDE's on Linux, instead of pointing to Emacs or VI.

Mark - Amsterdam/Holland

[Christopher (captain-c)]

"There are stil a couple of reasons for me to boot Windows from time to time..
1- Gaming (Tuxracer? are you kidding?)
2- Dreamweaver (please, don't talk Quanta or NVU)
3- Delphi (what happened with Kylix!?)
If we want to fix this bug we need to provide the Windows application- and webdeveloper with IDE's on the same level as the IDE's on Linux, instead of pointing to Emacs or VI."

I couldn't agree more. I am in the same position. I love *buntu but i'm a pc gamer, and unfortunately, i'm reliant on Windows for it. Also, Dreamweaver is the best web development app available. Other than those 2 items, Kubuntu/Ubuntu is so much better than Windows.

[Eric (kb3hkg-deactivatedaccount)]

Have you used Bluefish? I used to be a die hard Dreamweaver fan to , until a
slight problem I pointed out to Macromedia involving php files to which they
offered me $100 discount on a newer version when I had already spent $700
already. I'd rather have free working programs then pay for nonworking ones
any day.

On 6/5/06, Christopher <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> "There are stil a couple of reasons for me to boot Windows from time to
> time..
> 1- Gaming (Tuxracer? are you kidding?)
> 2- Dreamweaver (please, don't talk Quanta or NVU)
> 3- Delphi (what happened with Kylix!?)
> If we want to fix this bug we need to provide the Windows application- and
> webdeveloper with IDE's on the same level as the IDE's on Linux, instead of
> pointing to Emacs or VI."
>
> I couldn't agree more. I am in the same position. I love *buntu but i'm
> a pc gamer, and unfortunately, i'm reliant on Windows for it. Also,
> Dreamweaver is the best web development app available. Other than those
> 2 items, Kubuntu/Ubuntu is so much better than Windows.
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
>

[kellemes (kellemes)]

Yes, most IDE's for Windows are expencive but I don't mind paying a price for tools I earn money from myself. That includes the OS itself..
I don't say Dreamweaver (or VS or Delphi or whatever..) is the best IDE for everyone, and it maybe that for some it's not working flowlessly at all, but if it doesn't work as expected or if I want to handcode I can always use Emacs, VIM, JEdit or one of many free/open source editors available for Windows. There are a lot of Window alternatives for Bluefish but there aren't any Linux alternatives for Dreamweaver.

The best thing of Linux (Ubuntu ofcource) for me is choice, I'm not forced to use one specific mediaplayer, IDE, emailclient, windowmanager or webbrowser.
But if I want to develop my site or application on Linux it seems more effort and more time is needed to get the same result.
I think Linux will only go mainstream if the web/app-developer has more choice of IDE's.

[biffster (biffster)]

> There are stil a couple of reasons for me to boot Windows from time to time..
> 1- Gaming (Tuxracer? are you kidding?)

How about Quake IV? Doom3? Unreal Tournament 2004? Neverwinter Nights?
There are some big-name games out there with native Linux clients. It
is possible to waste a whole lotta time playing games in Linux. The
choices just aren't as many.

And then, of course, there's Cedega...

--
Michael Fierro <email address hidden>
Y! Messenger: miguelito_fierro AIM: mfierro1
http://biffster.org http://weightjournal.com
---
Weapons at best are tools of bad omen,
Loathed and avoided by those of the Way.
  - Tao Te Ching, Ch. 31, Blakney

[Marco Aicardi (launchpad-net-aicardi)]

Here in Italy Bug #1 is 99.9% spread, it's behaving like a virus!

Extremely easily reproduceable in 3 steps:

1) Enter a computer shop;
2) Choose the computer you'd like to buy;
3) Ask the seller "Hey man, nice PC; however I'd like to save €90 and have this computer without windoze".

The seller's brain will go immediately in BSOD (Blue Screen of Death) and the virus code will be run with root... oops... Administrator privileges, starting saying random words like "Ehm", "Well", "Mmm", "Ehhhr"; after saying that "a computer is not a computer without windoze", he will crash in a loop saying that "It's not possibile" (a new version of "Division by zero" fault?).

The only way to exit this loop is by using "the windoze style": give a kick in the ass to the seller (yeah, this is his ctrl-alt-del key combo!), and he'll reboot; then exit the store and try another one.

Cheers.

Stragnagn

[kellemes (kellemes)]

I'm somewhat surprised how many of you think software should be free when so many of us are making a living by using or developing software, I think it's fine when people have a choice of OS when they buy a computer but, for example, if you want to run an online store you should be willing to invest in software just like you'll have to invest in hardware..
I'm spending most of my life developing software for small bussinesses..
1- Because I enjoy it.
2- I want to feed my family.

Giving at away for free is not an option..
I spend a fair amount of time developing sites and apps for organisations and friends etc.. for free, simply because they don't have the money and/or I want to support them.
But I have to make a living don't I?

[kellemes (kellemes)]

"How about Quake IV? Doom3? Unreal Tournament 2004? Neverwinter Nights?
There are some big-name games out there with native Linux clients. It
is possible to waste a whole lotta time playing games in Linux. The
choices just aren't as many."

Most homeusers buying a PC want to be able to play games available for there system, choosing Linux is not an option really.. It's not about the bussiness selling the hardware with Windows preinstalled, it's about the developers who are having a hard time getting the support developing highstandard games (and standard apps) for Linux.

[Marco Aicardi (launchpad-net-aicardi)]

Here in Italy Bug #1 is 99.9% spread, it's behaving like a virus!

Extremely easily reproduceable in 3 steps:

1) Enter a computer shop;
2) Choose the computer you'd like to buy;
3) Ask the seller "Hey man, nice PC; however I'd like to save €90 and have this computer without windoze".

The seller's brain will go immediately in BSOD (Blue Screen of Death) and the virus code will be run with root... oops... Administrator privileges, starting saying random words like "Ehm", "Well", "Mmm", "Ehhhr"; after saying that "a computer is not a computer without windoze", he will crash in a loop saying that "It's not possibile" (a new version of "Division by zero" fault?).

The only way to exit this loop is by using "the windoze style": give a kick in the ass to the seller (yeah, this is his ctrl-alt-del key combo!), and he'll reboot; then exit the store and try another one.

Cheers.

Stragnagn

[biffster (biffster)]

On 6/5/06, Kellemes <email address hidden> wrote:
> I spend a fair amount of time developing sites and apps for organisations and friends etc.. for free, simply because they don't have the money and/or I want to support them.
> But I have to make a living don't I?

Ah, but just because you want/need to sell your software doesn't mean
that others must do the same thing. On the converse side, just because
the GiMP team makes their software available for free (as in beer and
speech) doesn't mean that Adobe cannot charge for Photoshop. Different
strokes for different folks.

I think that both paradigms get along fine. I have no problem shelling
out money for good software for my computer (e.g. I bought Quake IV
when it came out so I could play it on my Ubuntu machine). But I also
enjoy using a free (beer/speech) operating system, office package
(OO.o), personal information manager (Kontact), HTML editor
(Bluefish), music library (amaroK), blog software (Wordpress), etc.

--
Michael Fierro <email address hidden>
Y! Messenger: miguelito_fierro AIM: mfierro1
http://apt-get.biffster.org http://weightjournal.com
---
Weapons at best are tools of bad omen,
Loathed and avoided by those of the Way.
  - Tao Te Ching, Ch. 31, Blakney

[Marco Aicardi (launchpad-net-aicardi)]

Il giorno lun, 05/06/2006 alle 22.18 +0000, Kellemes ha scritto:
> I'm somewhat surprised how many of you think software should be free when so many of us are making a living by using or developing software, I think it's fine when people have a choice of OS when they buy a computer but, for example, if you want to run an online store you should be willing to invest in software just like you'll have to invest in hardware..
> I'm spending most of my life developing software for small bussinesses..
> 1- Because I enjoy it.

That's great.

> 2- I want to feed my family.

This is right and good.

However, please remember that it's possible to earn money even with FREE
software: an example is Asterisk.

If you want, you can have the totally free and open program, which is
one of the most complete and complex program for VoIP and PBX and POTS
telephone lines, with answering machines, fax, and a lot more.

Or, if you want, you can BUY a customized version, or you can BUY
premier support, or you can BUY a complete software/hardware solution.

For the user, this is an option, and they live with the money they get
from this part of the free software. They got RICH this way!

> I spend a fair amount of time developing sites and apps for organisations and friends etc.. for free, simply because they don't have the money and/or I want to support them.

I agree with you.

You can develop apps for free, and make people pay for support, for
example.

> But I have to make a living don't I?

You could try making something similar: make a Web site for a non-profit
organization, maybe someone having to deal with children's health...
Make if FOR FREE... You will make something great for the children and
for you, and when users will see your personal Ads in that site, maybe
some of them will come to your site and will ask you to pay in order for
you to make a web site for them.

Windows IS an option, and I think that, as long as companies can live
giving away software for free, open software is one of the best choice
ever.

Cheers.

Marco

[encompass (encompass)]

One of the big problems I see is that many people use illegal versions of windows with their computers. I think Microsoft would be a good company if they really made their software hard to copy. The harder the better.
In addition... it would be a good idea if linux/ubuntu users, not to use illegal versions of windows because it hurts the market of free software buy giving someone a free but illegal alternative.
Don't copy windows. Infact don't copy anything illegal. It hurts the free software world the most!
Purhaps we could all get jobs working for microsoft as anti-piracy gangs. Like the straight edgers of the software world. Grr! ¶:
Let's hope Windows Vista is the hards dang thing to crack.
Thanks for the comments everyone,
Jason Brower <encompass_¤_gmail.com>

[DarthMaul38 (tomasiwilly)]

This 'bug' you're talking about is 'by design', if I can say that. I studied IT on 286 computers with DOS on them, then Windows. I tried to switch to Linux many times, but every distribution comes with at least one obvious problem that's very hard to solve by a beginner. Let me give you just a few examples:
- Mandrake 8, 9 and 10: none of them was able to recognize properly my Lucent Winmodem (the only Winmodem officially supported in Linux) - never fixed even by people with experience in Linux
- Redhat (cant remember version) failed to work with USB devices 5 years after USB was implemented in Windows 98
- Ubuntu - cannot use my HP PSC multifunction printer, Midnight commander still shows crap in console mode
- Freebsd - most user unfriendly OS

These are maybe things that a Linux expert could fix easily, but hey, you want a regular user to love a OS that doesn't help him very much.
I've seen 8 yrs old kids installing Windows XP themselves, including printer, video, etc. just because it's all very easy to setup. Want them to swithc to a OS that has almost no games and it's a real adventure to configure? I think THIS is Linux's biggest bug - wasn't build for users who want a computer help do their job, but for people who accept to be computer's slaves.

[Marco Aicardi (launchpad-net-aicardi)]

Il giorno mer, 07/06/2006 alle 19.52 +0000, DarthMaul38 ha scritto:
> This 'bug' you're talking about is 'by design', if I can say that. I studied IT on 286 computers with DOS on them, then Windows. I tried to switch to Linux many times, but every distribution comes with at least one obvious problem that's very hard to solve by a beginner. Let me give you just a few examples:
> - Mandrake 8, 9 and 10: none of them was able to recognize properly my Lucent Winmodem (the only Winmodem officially supported in Linux) - never fixed even by people with experience in Linux
> - Redhat (cant remember version) failed to work with USB devices 5 years after USB was implemented in Windows 98
> - Ubuntu - cannot use my HP PSC multifunction printer, Midnight commander still shows crap in console mode
> - Freebsd - most user unfriendly OS
>
> These are maybe things that a Linux expert could fix easily, but hey, you want a regular user to love a OS that doesn't help him very much.
> I've seen 8 yrs old kids installing Windows XP themselves, including printer, video, etc. just because it's all very easy to setup. Want them to swithc to a OS that has almost no games and it's a real adventure to configure? I think THIS is Linux's biggest bug - wasn't build for users who want a computer help do their job, but for people who accept to be computer's slaves.

I agree with you that Linux is not easy to fix at the very beginning.

But please note that even a 8yrs old boy can install Linux (say Ubuntu
of Fedora Core, at least), if all the hardware is ok.

Winmodem and Winprinters are a UGLY strategy for hardware companies to
try to spend a very litte few bucks in order to save millions, and
making YOUR CPU making the work that the modem or printer hardware would
have to do.

Winmodem and Winprinter are usually not supported in Linux, as the
softRAID5, because hardware producers do NOT disclose driver sources, as
in the drivers are kept the "secrets" on how they product work. This is
NOT very kind to users. Hardware companies should support Linux!

For what regarding user friendlyness, I agree with you that Windows is
more user-friendly; but Linux is making BIG steps ahead to become more
and more user friendly.

At last, knowing a computer does not mean the user is a "slave" of the
PC. You are SLAVE of Windows, because if you want to make something, you
have to make it as Windows wants. Linux make you free of making what you
want with your PC, but you have to know how the PC works!

Many Windows user have NO idea on how internet works, on what "RAM" or
"HD" is, what is a worm, what is the BIOS or the bootblock, what a
partition is or which differences are between FAT, FAT32 and NTFS,
because they actually do not know what a filing-system is!!!

I think this is NOT a great way to use a computer. I mean... If you want
to drive a car, you have to know the basis on how it works, and you have
to know the laws you have to respect.

Nothing is necessary to use a computer... Why shouldn't it necessary for
users to know how a computer works? Knowledge is NEVER a fault!

Cheers.

Marco

[kellemes (kellemes)]

The average user doesn't want to know how a computer operates and they shouldn't need to.. Like Ubuntu says somewhere, it should just work!
I'm a proffessional user so I don't mind spending time getting things to work and I actually like it, but the average user wants a computer that just works!
I really don't see any reason for a user to know what the difference is between NTFS, FAT and FAT32 except when they need to know for there particular job. I'm often surprised how little people know about there (Windows) system and still being able to use it quit well for work or hobby.
To be honest, I don't know anything about the internals of my tv-set, microwave-oven or washingmachine but I'm using it daily and it just works!

[kellemes (kellemes)]

"Ubuntu - cannot use my HP PSC multifunction printer"

This is a good example of the lack of userfriendlyness on Linux.
It's the difference between..
- Popping in the CD-rom and follow the wizard (Windows)
- Follow directions here http://hplip.sourceforge.net/ (Linux)

For the average user the Linux-way is too complicated and timeconsuming..
You shouldn't blame the user, they have the choice between the easy and the hard way, obviously they choose the easy way.. The fact it's the more expencive way is no issue (not in the western world any way) simply because people have enough cash to spend some money.

[Marco Aicardi (launchpad-net-aicardi)]

Il giorno gio, 08/06/2006 alle 07.45 +0000, Kellemes ha scritto:
> The average user doesn't want to know how a computer operates and they shouldn't need to..

Ok, but then they do NOT have to complain of computer virus, internet
intrusions, private files disappearing as TCP port 139 is open and no
hardware firewall installed, and so on.

They do not have to complain, if they loose files in a system crash and
they are not able to recovery.

They do not have to complain, if they cannot restore the system after a
BSOD and they loose data.

> Like Ubuntu says somewhere, it should just work!

Infact I have installed Kubuntu to 3 friends of mine, and they are
working great with it. Such users were not even able to reinstall
Windows.

> but the average user wants a computer that just works!

The average driver would like to drive a car WITHOUT having to loose
time taking lessons and taking the license... But they simply cannot :-)

> I really don't see any reason for a user to know what the difference is between NTFS, FAT and FAT32 except when they need to know for there particular job.

For example because I'd like to know which security my system gives me?
I want to know if my wife can or cannot open a file of mine, and you
know that FAT/FAT32 have NO security flags, but 99% XP users do NOT
know.

I'd like that XP users know that leaving an Administrator password BLANK
make your PC completely open: whoever, on your PC or on the internet,
can access your files.

But users simply do NOT know that!

> I'm often surprised how little people know about there (Windows) system and still being able to use it quit well for work or hobby.

Yes, as I'm surpised on how little people is able to prevent damages to
software, is able to prevent internet intrusions or virus damages, and
so on...

> To be honest, I don't know anything about the internals of my tv-set, microwave-oven or washingmachine but I'm using it daily and it just works!

The day when your microwave-oven will keep gigabytes of your own
personal data (bank files, etc.) and that your tv-set will be
internet-violable and your washingmachine will have it's Operating
System to be reinstalled in order to work (or the OS upgraded in order
not to destroy yellow while washing), I think that day you SHOULD KNOW
how they operate.

Cheers.

Marco

[kellemes (kellemes)]

"but then they do NOT have to complain of computer virus, internet
intrusions, private files disappearing as TCP port 139 is open and no
hardware firewall installed, and so on."

When I buy a car there is a securitysystem installed, I only have to use it.. when I buy a computer there is nothing installed except for Windows-firewall, which isn't the best firewall out there.. A basic system to protect the user from the outside horror should be provided. I think users have all the right to complaint about viruses and trojan horses etc..

"FAT/FAT32 have NO security flags, but 99% XP users do NOT
know."
I really think the user only wants to know IF he can open the file, instead of being able to technically explain WHY he can't open the file.

"The average driver would like to drive a car WITHOUT having to loose
time taking lessons and taking the license... But they simply cannot :-)"

Marco, listen, there is a difference between driving the car (and maybe change a tire) and being able explain what's happening under the hood. I have my license but I'm not going to try to install a new oilpump or replace a crankshaft spacer , I'll visit the garage..

"The day when your microwave-oven will keep gigabytes of your own
personal data (bank files, etc.) and that your tv-set will be
internet-violable and your washingmachine will have it's Operating
System to be reinstalled in order to work (or the OS upgraded in order
not to destroy yellow while washing), I think that day you SHOULD KNOW
how they operate."

You know how an ATM-machine works?

I agree a lot of users are very ignorant in using the PC, but that's the reallity, that will never change. Hardware- and software developers should provide for a complete and working system for this ignorant user also. Assuming at least we (as Ubuntu fans) want this system to go mainstream..

"I have installed Kubuntu to 3 friends of mine, and they are
working great with it. Such users were not even able to reinstall
Windows."

There are avarage- (ignorant) users and power-users, also I had problems with Windows in situations where Linux would do the job perfectly, but in general it takes more time and know how to get Linux running on a particular system then Windows.. The difference maybe that Linux is extremely open and configurable where Windows is closed and hard to tweak..
But that's one of the strong points of Windows also.. it provides for a system that does it's thing the way B. Gates has chosen, maybe not fast, maybe not safe, maybe not cheap but it works.. (in most cases that is..)
If we want Ubuntu to go mainstream it should provide the ignorant user a working system without forcing him to recompile the kernel to get system-hibernate running, it should work when this user clicks the hibernate-button!

Ubuntu has a lot of work to do before this bug can be closed..

[Marco Aicardi (launchpad-net-aicardi)]

Il giorno gio, 08/06/2006 alle 10.00 +0000, Kellemes ha scritto:
> I agree a lot of users are very ignorant in using the PC, but that's the
> reallity, that will never change. Hardware- and software developers
> should provide for a complete and working system for this ignorant user
> also. Assuming at least we (as Ubuntu fans) want this system to go
> mainstream..

I agree with you. But such ignorance is NOT a good thing, I think.

15 years ago, people using a computer knew what a computer was, how it
worked, and usually how to solve problems.

Now with WindowsXP, every idiot in the world is able to install a virus
on his own machine...

I am NOT sure that this is the way things should go. Even if Windows
would be the ONLY OS in the world, I think that users should KNOW the PC
and know how to fix it... The simplest thigns, at least!!! This is MY
vision of the IT world.

> If we want Ubuntu to go mainstream it should provide the ignorant user a working system without forcing him to recompile the kernel to get system-hibernate running, it should work when this user clicks the hibernate-button!
>
> Ubuntu has a lot of work to do before this bug can be closed..

I agree with you and EVERY Linux Distro has a LOT of work to do.

But note that in the last 3 years a lot has been done: now
ignorant-users are able to use a preconfigured Linux system, I think in
the next 2 years the gap between Windows and Linux user-friendlyness
will be filled.

Then, only user's intelligence will be the problem between fixing Bug
#1.

Cheers.

Marco

[kellemes (kellemes)]

"but then they do NOT have to complain of computer virus, internet
intrusions, private files disappearing as TCP port 139 is open and no
hardware firewall installed, and so on."

When I buy a car there is a securitysystem installed, I only have to use it.. when I buy a computer there is nothing installed except for Windows-firewall, which isn't the best firewall out there.. A basic system to protect the user from the outside horror should be provided. I think users have all the right to complaint about viruses and trojan horses etc..

"FAT/FAT32 have NO security flags, but 99% XP users do NOT
know."
I really think the user only wants to know IF he can open the file, instead of being able to technically explain WHY he can't open the file.

"The average driver would like to drive a car WITHOUT having to loose
time taking lessons and taking the license... But they simply cannot :-)"

Marco, listen, there is a difference between driving the car (and maybe change a tire) and being able explain what's happening under the hood. I have my license but I'm not going to try to install a new oilpump or replace a crankshaft spacer , I'll visit the garage..

"The day when your microwave-oven will keep gigabytes of your own
personal data (bank files, etc.) and that your tv-set will be
internet-violable and your washingmachine will have it's Operating
System to be reinstalled in order to work (or the OS upgraded in order
not to destroy yellow while washing), I think that day you SHOULD KNOW
how they operate."

You know how an ATM-machine works?

I agree a lot of users are very ignorant in using the PC, but that's the reallity, that will never change. Hardware- and software developers should provide for a complete and working system for this ignorant user also. Assuming at least we (as Ubuntu fans) want this system to go mainstream..

"I have installed Kubuntu to 3 friends of mine, and they are
working great with it. Such users were not even able to reinstall
Windows."

There are avarage- (ignorant) users and power-users, also I had problems with Windows in situations where Linux would do the job perfectly, but in general it takes more time and know how to get Linux running on a particular system then Windows.. The difference maybe that Linux is extremely open and configurable where Windows is closed and hard to tweak..
But that's one of the strong points of Windows also.. it provides for a system that does it's thing the way B. Gates has chosen, maybe not fast, maybe not safe, maybe not cheap but it works.. (in most cases that is..)
If we want Ubuntu to go mainstream it should provide the ignorant user a working system without forcing him to recompile the kernel to get system-hibernate running, it should work when this user clicks the hibernate-button!

Ubuntu has a lot of work to do before this bug can be closed..

[rabbitdude (rabbitdude)]

In Portland, this bug is around 75-95% prevailent.

I know of the K12 Linux terminal Server Project, which supports linux in an education enviroment using thin-clients, and Free Geek, which gives refurbished Linux boxes (called a Freakbox) for either 24 hours of voulenteer work or building 6 computer systems (you keep the 6th).

Some of the area schools have linux labs and people are distrobuting linux, but not much of an impact that some may want.

[franganghi (joered)]

I found that in Italy the bug also infects the brain of the lusers: in many cases, lusers has been found standing in front of the monitor with the brain halted, watching WE DON'T KNOW WHAT while a picasso-like picture on the screen indicates that the system is performing a disk defragmentation.

[renatogini (rgini-inwind)]

In Italy (Milan) the bug is fully verified.
The good new is that a few month ago I buyed a mobile computer with a scratch HDD (no OS!); the seller was very interested in Linux, but also very ignorant so he could not offer a Linux pre-installed.
Go on fixing bug and the market share could be inverted!
I agree with most people in this stream; also users must be reformatted after Micro$oft virus infection.

[Bartolomeo Nicolotti (bart-nicolotti)]

With https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/home it won't be possible to eliminate bug#1 because it won't be possible to boot a non trusted operating system!

[Marco Aicardi (launchpad-net-aicardi)]

Il giorno sab, 10/06/2006 alle 09.14 +0000, Bartolomeo Nicolotti ha
scritto:
> With https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/home it won't be possible to
> eliminate bug#1 because it won't be possible to boot a non trusted
> operating system!

This is NOT correct; it will be possible to boot a non-TC operating
system, disabling the TCPA features.

But this will cause impossibility to open files produced under
TC-enabled OSes (read: Windows) and browse the Web on TC-enabled
web-sites (read: Windows Server hosted professional web sites) and hear
digital music protected with the latest DPRM.

However, with TC, fixing bug #1 will be a lot harder!

Marco

[D. Brodzik (amyrose)]

Yeah, I can verify this bug. When I bought my laptop, they said the only way I can get a refund for Windows is to return the whole laptop. So I was stuck paying for software I NEVER used.

It's hard to find stores around here that will sell computers without Windows. I am sick of paying for software I don't use. (The computers that come with Linux were too expensive for me.) This bug is so critical, the only way to fix it on my laptop was to format the entire hard drive and install Ubuntu!

I don't fully understand why PC manufacturers don't preinstall Ubuntu and other free OSes on their systems because they are royalty-free.

[abhijit_rao (vilabhi)]

This bug took me down; when I was on my knees praying, Ubuntu was revealed to me.
On a more serious note - I would not mind paying money for Ubuntu - I think Ubuntu is wonderful. The money should be used to encourage more development. If one is really serious about getting rid of bug#1 - money should be charged so that it can be used to fund new development faster.Let us think about it - Ubuntu can reach bigger level of success.

[D. Brodzik (amyrose)]

Some of us are poor college students with no money who use Ubuntu partly because it's free. While it is also the best OS I've ever used, I would rather donate than be required to pay for it. Of course, I use it for other reasons, too, but the most convincing argument to give it a try is "It's FREE!"

I'm still trying to find other workarounds for this bug, though. People don't seem to be willing to change. My girlfriend and I use Ubuntu, but we are trying to convince others to use it too.

This bug is very critical because I have to format my computers to work around it, losing all data on the hard drive.

[Eric (kb3hkg-deactivatedaccount)]

At the same time if you are in college this gives you a great place to
spread ubuntu around. I have used my own campus for this and though slow I
have succesfully converted atleast 5 people in the last smester alone to
ubuntu.

On 6/12/06, Daniel Brodzik <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> Some of us are poor college students with no money who use Ubuntu partly
> because it's free. While it is also the best OS I've ever used, I would
> rather donate than be required to pay for it. Of course, I use it for
> other reasons, too, but the most convincing argument to give it a try is
> "It's FREE!"
>
> I'm still trying to find other workarounds for this bug, though. People
> don't seem to be willing to change. My girlfriend and I use Ubuntu, but
> we are trying to convince others to use it too.
>
> This bug is very critical because I have to format my computers to work
> around it, losing all data on the hard drive.
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
>

[outoforderuk (outoforderuk)]

Having same problem in england, i'm currently trying to buy a laptop, and everyone insists on giving me a windows license with it, i dont want it and it adds £60 to the price which is veru annoying

[catty0320 (catty0320)]

i am gonna hand out ubuntu and kubuntu CDs at digital life in new york, RIGHT BESIDE THE MICROSOFT BOOTH as they boast about vista beta 2. i downloaded it and so far it seems like what you find in a latrine

[1337 (neorser)]

I think this bug affects the linux kernel itself!

[Jordan Peacock (hewhocutsdown)]

In Kuwait and indeed, much of the middle east, everything is pirated. The irony of this is that legitamite, free software, goes unrecognized even as horrid copies (some that work, some that don't) of overpriced commercial software sell on the black market.

Secondly, there is no support, community or otherwise, as at best, most people are trained on a severely Micro-centric curriculum. Even Macintoshes are rarities.

Severe condition on this, with education being the only major stopping point; people get their machines built from scratch, and virtually all copies of windows are pirated anyway. Change the understanding of the businessmen and this would change drastically.

[Bruce Cowan (bruce89-deactivatedaccount)]

Reproducable in Scotland!

[Jeremy Lynton (lynton)]

I have found this bug to be widespread in Spain! It is so bad here that the downloadable programme for doing the annual tax declaration only work on the aformentioned 'windows', I have checked with the tax office and was told that if I bought a copy of 'windows' to do my declaration, I could not discount the price from my tax bill!

I wonder if this so-called 'windows' is a bug at all; I am begining to think that it may be a conspiracy!

[sean (sean-rains)]

Of course it's a conspiracy. Everything that involves that much money and secrecy has to become a conspiracy. That's why you switch to free software, if everybody knows what's in it, there's no need to conspire!

[Stromham (stromham)]

what is the point of this? it is not a 'bug'.

[Eric (kb3hkg-deactivatedaccount)]

It is something we are trying to fix though.

On 6/27/06, Stromham <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> what is the point of this? it is not a 'bug'.
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
>

[paniq (paniq)]

I have also noticed that within the demoscene, Microsofts market share is rather big. Programmers of freely available multimedia 3D presentations do usually not care much for Linux. I founded LinuxDemos.org to change this. We foster high-end development of graphics demonstrations on Ubuntu. The first stepstone is a competition within a competition on a german Demoparty in August. Let's see how this will progress.

On a sidenote: searching for "wine", i noticed that winehq bumped up on the google rankings from #3 to #1. could this be a sign?

[Mikko Mäkelä (mmm)]

We are working for the fix. We will release it before Christmas. All interested in participating can contact me: <email address hidden>.

[D. Brodzik (amyrose)]

I'm in the computer hardware program, and in one of my classes, the teacher was bragging about how generous Microsoft is by letting college students get their stuff cheap. I raised my hand and said "Who needs this Micro$oft stuff cheap when you can get similar stuff for free? They just want to lead you in so they'll have you hooked for life!" I'm very public in my opinions, and I even refuse to use the college's computers most of the time (I can get on the wireless network using my Ubuntu-based laptop anyway). I am so sick of them saying they have the latest in Micro$oft software (and bragging about it .... ugh!)

[DarkMageZ (darkmagez)]

(replying to Daniel Brodzik's previous comment)

hehe yeah. it's even funnier that their latest is 3-5 years obsolete, depending on which peice of software we are talking about! even then that code isn't particularly new... they take the old code, add afew features, put some more polish on the user interface & modify the propriatory format just alittle so it breaks compadibility with the previous versions!. Now you HAVE to BUY the new version if you wish to beable to view that powerpoint presentation from your boss.

It's also funny how that they give everyone Administrator (root) priverlages! .Then install some crummy program to lock you out of playing with settings, installing software & prevent you from using msn messenger! Which causes Internet Explorer!!! to crash on its first run everyday...

THEN!!!, you're sitting there with internet explorer opened (because you are not allowed to use Firefox or Opera) and porn pop-up's keep coming up while you are trying to do work... and even when you are NOT using internet explorer... the applications the teachers want you to write documentation for... for an assignment won't start because windows is corrupt... you know how to fix it (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;324767)
but fixing it will break collage policy, and the network administrator will be there in 1-6 months to fix it.

(the above is a true story from just ONE year @ campus)

OpenStandards Forever!

[Eric (kb3hkg-deactivatedaccount)]

What college is this? Beginning to wonder if a college team should be
setup complete with a list of which colleges use linux or use MS.

Daniel Brodzik wrote:
> I'm in the computer hardware program, and in one of my classes, the
> teacher was bragging about how generous Microsoft is by letting college
> students get their stuff cheap. I raised my hand and said "Who needs
> this Micro$oft stuff cheap when you can get similar stuff for free? They
> just want to lead you in so they'll have you hooked for life!" I'm very
> public in my opinions, and I even refuse to use the college's computers
> most of the time (I can get on the wireless network using my Ubuntu-
> based laptop anyway). I am so sick of them saying they have the latest
> in Micro$oft software (and bragging about it .... ugh!)
>
>

[D. Brodzik (amyrose)]

This college says "Nobody uses that Linux stuff!" I remember trying to submit directions for using Linux to get on the wireless network (they had Windows and Macintosh directions for it), but they said "No! Nobody uses it!" I know they're partially sponsored by Microsoft (they have Microsoft banners all over the place)... The bug is really prevalent at WCTC (Waukesha County Tech College in Wisconsin)!

[Scott James Remnant (Canonical) (canonical-scott)]

moving the sysvinit task to some source package without bug contacts -- this is filling my INBOX and I *REALLY* don't care!

[Freyr (freyr)]

##DarkMageZ##
It is possible to use firefox without admin powers on a windows computer. You can use firefox zip off the firefox ftp sever with a few changes if you want to leave no usage tracks or use portable firefox which is already set up for you.
http://portableapps.com/apps/internet/browsers/portable_firefox

The college I went to in Missouri replace every computer on the hole campus with new ones so they could upgrade to Windows XP from 98/2000, why in the world you want to do that. Buy one new good computer for each classroom and make that into a server and turn all the old computers into thin clients. Each classroom in the IT building had atleast 20 computers and I don't even want to think about all the computers the staff was using that was replace campus wide. After the switch, all classes went up about $20 a credit hour >.<

[DarkMageZ (darkmagez)]

(replying to Freyr)
actually no, after one kid did that... he got suspended for 2 weeks. then they added an entre to that crummy lockdown program to prevent firefox from loading... funny, it only took them a day to fix that one!

[Andrew Ginty (gintya)]

How about pestering internet cafes and the providers of those awful internet booths at airports and hotels to switch to Linux.

a) They'll have a better, more secure, more functional user interface
b) Ordinary people will have the opportunity to use Linux without even knowing it
     (except for "why can't I have that browser with the red and blue icon on my home PC")
c) Advocacy will come at the ground level from us Geeks to real people

So get out of your bedrooms and down to the internet cafes.

[Mr. B.B.C. (mrbbc)]

First of all: it's most user-friendly to preinstall an OS. Installation is a very awful procedure. If you'd be forced to install Windows on your own it may lose at least 10 percent of its market share... Even installing Ubuntu takes time; BTW: a good OS installer would ask first for all settings among other things the root password, users and so on and then automatically installs with no more prompting.

Second: there are loads of software the people want to run; especially video games, but maybe even some mirror cabinet managment software bought at Wal-Mart... because there are descriptions how you can run Half-Life 2 with WINE, I assume that you can get most Windows applications working - but you might need some kind of scripts doing installation and execution; the best coming with a tool that serves, downloads and manages them in a unified format.

[sopo (sopo-dan)]

MARCO:
you're forgetting that 15 years ago computers were only used by IT specialists. nowdays a computer is like a car, or a washing machine - everybody NEEDS to use it to get something done, they don't need to LIKE it or understand it.
you can't ask a secretary who just needs to answer e-mails and type documents to understand why her box won't hybernate. it's the IT specialist's job to make it hybernate when she pushes that particular button.
and sadly in linux this and many other things don't "just work" yet the way our little secretary would expect it.
sure, you don't need to be a specialist to understand these things, but you have to at least like them and be interested in them. but if you're neither they just nned to work.
and it can't be considered ignorance if someone isn't interested in computers. we can't all have the same hobbies, can we?
you don't expect everyone to understand how an internal combustion engine works, or what the effects of a short shift gearbox are, but everyone expects a car to work as advertised.

PS: you can substitute "secretary" for any other job you like, because everybody is more or less relying on a computer to get something done

PS2: this is NOT a pro-MS statement, i'm just saying that linux still needs alot of work to be done on the "works out of the box" factor

[Allen Graham (allenggraham)]

Halo Sopo !!!
23 years ago I was using a PC in my business, along with a colour monitor,
and I was not an IT specialist. Even then there was a choice between DOS and
Unix. But today everyone needs to access a computer and the 'net. Everyone
needs to understand the computer they are driving. At this moment the only
foolproof, desktop , system that I know of, within my limited scope is
Ubuntu Linux . Windows, any flavour. is scary. Viruses, spyware, and just
plain lousy code plague MS Windows. Bill Gates is the wealthiest man in
the world, does he give a damn about lousy code ? Linux does work.
Perhaps the only aspect of computer use is that we should trust is Linux.
Flawed as it may be Linux s the only answer on the horizon .
Allen

On 7/13/06, sopo <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> MARCO:
> you're forgetting that 15 years ago computers were only used by IT
> specialists. nowdays a computer is like a car, or a washing machine -
> everybody NEEDS to use it to get something done, they don't need to LIKE it
> or understand it.
> you can't ask a secretary who just needs to answer e-mails and type
> documents to understand why her box won't hybernate. it's the IT
> specialist's job to make it hybernate when she pushes that particular
> button.
> and sadly in linux this and many other things don't "just work" yet the
> way our little secretary would expect it.
> sure, you don't need to be a specialist to understand these things, but
> you have to at least like them and be interested in them. but if you're
> neither they just nned to work.
> and it can't be considered ignorance if someone isn't interested in
> computers. we can't all have the same hobbies, can we?
> you don't expect everyone to understand how an internal combustion engine
> works, or what the effects of a short shift gearbox are, but everyone
> expects a car to work as advertised.
>
> PS: you can substitute "secretary" for any other job you like, because
> everybody is more or less relying on a computer to get something done
>
> PS2: this is NOT a pro-MS statement, i'm just saying that linux still
> needs alot of work to be done on the "works out of the box" factor
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
>

--
http://adventures-with-the-rascals.blogspot.com/

[Naresh V (nareshov)]

Very easily reproducible bug in any part of India.

[Hil (freehil)]

Undoubtedly reproducible at Building 118 at Microsoft North campus. Every PC in the Microsoft headquarter buildings is windows based except its Linux lab. I've never been there, so it does not count. Well, I put Linux on a old PC just to test the CD-ROM. No one here cared about if you put Linux on PCs as long as you get your jobs done

[kubuntu_user (anibalmorales)]

My strategy is to go to each major computer store, i.e. CompUSA and the like, and ask "where are your Linux computers?." When they say they don't have them, then I leave disgusted.

[Eric (kb3hkg-deactivatedaccount)]

Tried it most of them don't know what Linux is and haven't heard of it,
oddly enough this includes Best Buy who even sells Suse.

On 8/2/06, kubuntu_user <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> My strategy is to go to each major computer store, i.e. CompUSA and the
> like, and ask "where are your Linux computers?." When they say they
> don't have them, then I leave disgusted.
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
>

[0001 (mark-franklin)]

Verified reproduced in blg 50 at Microsoft, Redmond.

All the test machines and mail machines are running windows. Additional troubleshooting steps are too risky. Waiting to see what happens to the market when Vista bombs.

[Christian Adéen (christian-adeen)]

Before we even can think about making, Ubuntu Linux mainstream we MUST get all well know programs that work on a Windows PC to work on a Ubuntu PC.

Ofcourse we have WINE, Win4Lin or Vmware that can, if you just take you're time. Work with almost any Windows program. But a regular user just want to click and install. A regular user don't want to open a Package manager or a terminal to install a program.

Today I thing Linux has a really big problem because of games not working on Linux. This is prior to fix, I know that there are some games that are actually working fine and almost easier to install in Linux than on windows.
But what if I want to install a game from 95 or so, that will not be easy.

So as an conclusion we can say that every thing that a user is about to do on a Linux computer shall be done with a maximum of ONE mouse click or ONE double click. If we together can manage to get this to work maybe we can think about taking market shares from Microsoft in about ten years or so.

It's not the user fault that he or she don't use Linux it is and will always be Linux fault. It is just to hard to understand...

Windows is a easy thing to understand, and learn. When I first met my computer, I didn't have Internet. Or any forums to ask for help in. I just learned with time. So please stop discussing this "bug" and start thinking in terms whit out forums, support or data admins.

 A Ubuntu computer shall work with out even having to visit a Ubuntu-forum. It shall just work with whatever the user wants to get done on his or hers Ubuntu computer, than we can get it mainstream.

So for good sake don't look at Microsoft as an devil that just kill all ways of getting Linux mainstream, the problem lies within Linux, it is to hard to use for any regular user.

And just so you know, I don't hate Windows and I don't love Linux, I just dont like them.

[nodata (ubuntu-nodata)]

@Christian Aden
"Before we even can think about making, Ubuntu Linux mainstream we MUST get all well know programs that work on a Windows PC to work on a Ubuntu PC."
We need _equivalents_ of _popular_ applications on a Ubuntu PC, not _all_well-known_programs_.
And for most applications, there is.

"But a regular user just want to click and install. A regular user don't want to open a Package manager or a terminal to install a program."
Well a user is going to have to open something to tell the computer that they want a particular piece of software on their computer. As long as that something is a piece of cake to use, the user will be happy. An "install software" icon, and a place to type is better than the Windows way:
Find vendor website, register for download, click download link in e-mail, run installer, ignore all the questions and keep clicking next, now reboot.
versus Linux: find package using apt, install using apt. An easy gui wrapper will improve this for users.

"Windows is a easy thing to understand"
It seems easier because people forget that they learnt Windows.

[Christian Adéen (christian-adeen)]

@Nodata
"Before we even can think about making, Ubuntu Linux mainstream we MUST get all well know programs that work on a Windows PC to work on a Ubuntu PC."
<--We need _equivalents_ of _popular_ applications on a Ubuntu PC, not _all_well-known_programs_.
And for most applications, there is.-->

Well it seams to me that this is the main problem, that developers of Linux and other open source OSes. And "We need _equivalents_ of _popular_ applications on a Ubuntu PC" Does not seam to have solved the problem.

"But a regular user just want to click and install. A regular user don't want to open a Package manager or a terminal to install a program."
<--Well a user is going to have to open something to tell the computer that they want a particular piece of software on their computer. As long as that something is a piece of cake to use, the user will be happy. An "install software" icon, and a place to type is better than the Windows way:
Find vendor website, register for download, click download link in e-mail, run installer, ignore all the questions and keep clicking next, now reboot.
versus Linux: find package using apt, install using apt. An easy gui wrapper will improve this for users.-->

Of course the Linux way is an better way, but what happens if i the program I want to use don't exist in the apt-library?

Than the Linux way is alot harder to understand.

"Windows is a easy thing to understand"
<--It seems easier because people forget that they learnt Windows-->

My mother for an example does not know how to use Windows, but she would chose Windows because of it's user friendly way of learning. It is essayer to learn Windows she think.

What I think we have to do:

Create a "John Doe" and from this man create a target group.

"John Doe" has to be that man who walks to a computer store and asks what computer to buy, and "John Doe" is the man who not ask why he should by that computer.

Men and women like "John Doe" should be the target group, and Ubuntu should be developed for this persons only.

A more advanced user should also be able to use Ubuntu.

In the beginning of my Linux use age I was not "John Doe" I knew how to get help, from forums and wikis. But "John Doe" doesn't.

When we know that "John Doe" can use Ubuntu, we can start marketing Ubuntu for the resellers.

[nodata (ubuntu-nodata)]

@Christian Aden
"Well it seams to me that this is the main problem, that developers of Linux and other open source OSes. And "We need _equivalents_ of _popular_ applications on a Ubuntu PC" Does not seam to have solved the problem."

Well porting proprietary products to Linux would defeat the point of Linux. I don't see your point.

"what happens if i the program I want to use don't exist in the apt-library?
Than the Linux way is alot harder to understand."

Yep. It has to be in apt, or they can't install it.

"My mother for an example does not know how to use Windows, but she would chose Windows because of it's user friendly way of learning. It is essayer to learn Windows she think."

She would chose what a technical person, or the shop recommends to her. Or what was available.
"Windows being easier to learn" is an opinion, an opinion I disagree with. Compare Windows, with its cacophony of menus, with Gnome.

Windows has a lot of strangeness. "Start" being used to shutdown the pc? Marvellous.

[ankush_kalkote (ankush-kalkote)]

What u say is infinite loop;
Bcz no linux has the same user-friendliness as Windows and morever The free-software development has no direction whrereas the Microsoft is neatly organized and development is well directed.

[Aaron (soulblade)]

This bug can be found here in the UK.

It is reproducible on my i386 / EMT64 based computers.

Macs that are Based around the EFI were safe, but the bug can be reproduced using bookcamp.

Also where I work around 5000 PC's have many versions of it. The worst being version 95 that does not need any user intervention to crash. And not close behind XP with its auto mass emailing function.

[Sebastián Benítez (sbenitezb)]

Here in Argentina is too extremely widespread. Even the government can be held accountable of spreading this bug, as seen in this page: http://www.programamipc.com.ar/

But what's worse is this bug is not only in a PC bug, also can be found in people's mind. It has stealth mode active by default when infects a new person, so it is totally normal for the host to think it isn't infected or there is something wrong.

[tinker404 (ptaylor404)]

How many more times !!! It's not a bug it's a "feature". ;-P

[Utsav Pardasani (pardasaniman)]

Maybe "one step at a time"

I'd like to see a "ubuntu compatible" logo on PCs that are out there.

This way one can ensure a quality ubuntu experience, unblemished by random proprietary hardware. It's one thing to sell pre-installed, it's another to sell pre-installed AND usefull.

There should be a gradual taking of marketshare, people are not going to understand why Ubuntu can't play MP3s/WMfishyFudge out of the box. They may pop in a driver CD for their webcam, USB toy, and then find it not work. They'll just return the computer to the store, perhaps, they'll even claim it's defective.

Ubuntu's target market is the same as Apples: People who are somewhat computer literate, open minded and demanding an alternative. Apple has developed and "educated" its user-base with time, let's not lose perspective about the capabilities of our still young (albeit powerful) OS is.

[Tomas Pollak (tomaspollak)]

Here in Chile, the situation is basically the same as in all the other countries mentioned here. However, there's some light at the end of the tunnel. Some (select few) people in the government seem to know about Linux, and some good initiatives have been going on. For instance, we have an Educational Distro called EduLinux (www.elulinux.cl) which is financed by the government.

As someone said above, I think the source of the bug resides mainly in people's heads. People are too lazy to try something else that Windows (even though they know it's gonna make their computing lives better!).

And of course, the lack of marketing that Linux has ever had. All the FUD that Microsoft has succesfully spread across people and companies (specially them).

Anyway, I'm quite optimistic as to what can be done, considering all that Ubuntu has accomplished in so few years, making Linux more popular. However, even though Ubuntu has had a lot of marketing due to is enormous community, I believe that Linux won't become _really popular_ unless there's more collaborative "spread the word" campaigns among distros. It seems that Ubuntu, Gentoo, SUSE, whatever, are actually "competing" between them (which is not bad in some ways, but for communicational purposes it is).

Perhaps we should follow Firefox's example. What about something like SpreadingLinux? ;)

I mean..."Hackers of the World.. UNITE!"

[ChrisLees (christopher-lees)]

Like http://www.getgnulinux.org/ ?

Bug replicated here in Perth, Australia; but at least there is Linux awareness. At least one guy who works at Dick Smith's Joondalup uses Linux, and I've found a computer store in that same suburb that I think probably sells Linux (has the Linux and Debian logos painted on the front window).

[Andreika (zorin-andrey)]

This is one of ways to fix that bloody bug :

taken from : http://www.dv1000forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1328

Post subject: Get a refund for your Windows licence
I've ordered my dv1000 from hpshopping. Unfortunately they do not offer the dv1000 with FreeDOS or Linux (other laptops from HP that do not get sold on hpshopping come with the option of FreeDOS as an operating system and some other manufactureres even offer preinstalled Linux) so it came with Windows XP Home. I did not accept the Windows EULA that gets displayed when first booting up the laptop. The EULA clearly states:

Quote:
If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, you may not use or
copy the SOFTWARE, and you should promptly contact Manufacturer
for instructions on return of the unused product(s) in accordance
with Manufacturer's return policies.

(See http://proprietary.clendons.co.nz/licenses/eula/windowsxphome-eula.htm for the entire EULA.)

So I called up hpshopping and explained that I didn't accept the EULA and wanted a refund for my Windows licence as stated in the EULA. The call center agent and her supervisor were both very friendly (but unfamiliar with the idea that someone might not want to use Windows or not accept the EULA) and the supervisor finally offered to refund $69 (the difference between XP Home and XP Professional). Hopefully, if more people ask for a refund they will start offering the option of getting a laptop without Windows in the first place."

[b (ben-ekran)]

Here in Vancouver, BC Canada I can see that you can go to the local library and see a sign on the computers that says:

"Internet and OpenOffice"

And you can hapily create documents, particially, outside the market share of M$.

Of course only particially since you still have to use openOffice on windows.

Its a start.

First time I have seen a big public institution installing OSS rather than MS for some tasks.

[deesy58 (deesy58)]

After looking at Red Hat 7.0 and 7.3 a couple of years ago, I became curious about Ubuntu and Kubuntu. I also purchased the Official Ubuntu Book, so I know about Bug #1. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this one to be resolved, however. Documentation, when it exists at all, is scattered all over the Internet. Dapper is, IMHO, relatively buggy, and the so-called "community" of Ubuntu users might, or might not provide help, support and advice to those users experiencing problems with installation and configuration. I have seen forum boards with questions from newbies that have gone unanswered for over a month. What kind of support is that? For the most part, Ubuntu and Kubuntu procedures seem counter-intuitive, and each installation of Dapper appears to perform a little differently.

It appears that Ubuntu has taken on more of the characteristics of a philosophy or a religion than of a technology, and there are a good many evangelical believers out there. But I think you will be waiting for a very, very long time for a resolution to Bug #1. Criticize Microsoft and Windows all you want! Their documentation is centralized and comprehensive, and their support is prompt and conscientious. I have never had a question posted on a Microsoft Support Board go unanswered. It is relatively easy for a home user to purchase a shrink-wrapped Windows XP, take it home, and install it with no major problems. Ubuntu and Kubuntu can't day that. This product (ubuntu) is clearly not ready for "prime time."

Just my opinion, but it is enough to make me want to give Red Hat, or maybe SuSE another try ...

Deesy58

[Alec Wright (alecjw)]

I've tagged it as a security risk becuase windoze, by default, has all of it's ports open and, worst of all, you might think your files are password protected, but the aren't encrypted in any way. Just put the HDD in a linux machine and voila - there are you personal files which are supposed to be password protected. Also, any other user can just remove your password in windoze.

[The-Excel (excel-2006)]

Is this a joke or just a humorous way to state your long-term goal?

[Alec Wright (alecjw)]

I think that this bug should have an importance level of its own because it is the cause of most of the rest of the bugs - most people use windoze so hardware manafacturers don't do drivers for linux. Also, there is a much smaller linux community, meaming that bugs don't get found or squashed quickly enough.

[Arun John(Zack) (arunzjohn)]

form a I-Team(inter connected via internet) to educate ppl bout ubuntu,provide them with ubunscores based on performance which they later can redeem..inject free trainings among corporate youth which would be hadled by the I-PR-Team..i hav a complete master paln for the rising..letz hav a con if at all to take this bug seriously..

[jz (jz+)]

I'm looking forward to the day when the built for windows stickers on machines are replaced with something that indicates Linux compatibility ("built for Ubuntu" maybe). I think the Ubuntu community could really be the force that finally gets PC manufacturers to examine more closely how their products are used and add better support for the growing Linux community.

[Matthew McGowan (mmcg069)]

This computer is built from technology that is openly documented.

That sounds about right.

[Luca Della Vedova (lucadellavedov)]

I think that a better graphic can increase linux popularity... For example most of my friends waits for windows vista not for new features but only for the graphics... I know that it's a quite stupid thing but it is very important for some people...

[darkbane (shanerc)]

I don't know if this was mention or not. I apologize if it has....

With Windoze preinstalled, they turn on their computer, it works, it to them it the concept of "if it's not broke, don't fix it". Their attitude would be the same if it was pre-installed with Linux. It's installed it works, don't change it.

What if the consumer was given the option of an OS. Sell computers with a blank slate. Don't preinstall an OS. Let them choose. Give them the option of A.) paying about $1000 or more for the OS and office applications they need, or B.) give them an OS and all of the applications they need free of charge.

This would a stronge attack on the bug for a lot of custom PC builders and smaller PC shops.

Just a thought.

[Alec Wright (alecjw)]

Apparently (according to most computer manafacturers who I've contacted), there's a law in the UK that all computers have to ship with Windoze...

The sensible solution to this would be to have windoze 95 on a 1GB partition on the hard disk, and as soon as the computer starts, linux reformats the windoze partition to swapfs...

[Chris Rose (chris-vault5)]

To prevent piracy computers must ship with /an/ operating system, not nessecerily with Windows. Dell ships some machines with FreeDOS for example.

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

> To prevent piracy computers must ship with /an/ operating system, not nessecerily with
> Windows.

Is this according to UK law? that's nonsense at best.

[Chris Rose (chris-vault5)]

It isn't law, more a generally accepted industry regulation.

[Popa Adrian Marius (mapopa)]

This book might help in moving enterprise desktops

IBM has published a final draft of its "Redbook" titled Linux Client
Migration Cookbook, Version 2: A Practical Planning and Implementation
Guide for Migrating to Desktop Linux. The 376-page book, which targets
enterprises needing to begin an evaluation of desktop Linux

http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS5790800597.html

--
developer flamerobin.org

[Popa Adrian Marius (mapopa)]

Road with cubic stones - myth

On my street i live there is an interesting road with cubic stones
Half of it is covered with asphalt and half is with old cubic stones
, One day they old part
will be covered too with asphalt but until then we use both paths.

What this have to do with ubuntu/linux ?
Old cubic stone path is representing windows with all the costs
maintaining it (you need to pay workers to fix it and do manual
repetitive work like reinstalls) and the new road is ubuntu/linux with
modern look and feel (more secure too)

We can try to be constructive and install linux with dual boot option
(win/lin) also on all computers (where you are forced to use windows)
you can install vmware player or qemu with free ubuntu images .
Someday an installer should be created with both or live cd :1.install
vmware player , 2. install/copy and run ubuntu image or live cd from
within windows

Search for ubuntu vmware images (or create new one with vmware server)

http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/directory/cat/48/

Another way to attract new users (designers) is to show them cool
themes or 3d new look (xgl)

http://www.supriyadisw.net/2006/09/ultimate-ubuntu-dapper-look-like-osx

ps:another way is to show your coworkers that windows can work like an
legacy image (in vmware)

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=84275

--
developer flamerobin.org

[Wolf Halton (saphil)]

Cubic stones fix does not work in Conyers GA
metaphor has dependencies unmet.

UNIX is 20 years older than dos. UNIX is cubic stones here. Brick roads here have lasted for over 100 years. Asphalt fixes have to be replaced every year (like windows) Fixing old brick roads holes with new bricks takes longer than pouring some asphalt, but fix lasts 100 years, too.

[cyber_rigger (cyber-rigger)]

I've been keeping a list of some companies working on bug #1.

Here are some companies selling preinstalled desktop Linux.
http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/23168/

I suggest that when you buy your next computer
use a vendor that offers preinstalled Linux.

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

cyber_rigger wrote:
> I've been keeping a list of some companies working on bug #1.
>
> Here are some companies selling preinstalled desktop Linux.
> http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/23168/
>
> I suggest that when you buy your next computer
> use a vendor that offers preinstalled Linux.
>
ah I wish they could sell brand name computers cheaper :)
"an HP laptop [512MB RAM, core duo] with Ubuntu 6.10 $690" -> this would
be a dream come true

PS. thanks for the link

[SlOrbA (lari-korpi)]

The main problem is that the reseller gets more profit when the M$ tax is inuse.

The computer business is not a fast growing market in developed world and the reseller aren't going to be compensated by the growing volumes, which in many cases would lead into need to do excess growth on the organization. So when the volume remains constant and the unit price rises the reseller are happier, because it's extra profit with no extra investments.

A workaround to this bug there for include a increasement on unit price, no effect on volumes and thus increasing profit with option on widening the scope of providers. One solution that has these requirments is the service model if it can be introduced into the reseller chanels. In this the customer would buy the installation and the initial subscribtion from the computer reseller and the reseller would be able to collect profit from both of these transactions.

The M$ dominance demonstrates that the bigest incentive is the ability make profit and the ability to provide your own added value comes after that.

[Roger Filmyer (rfilmyer)]

Easily reproducible in PA.

[swamytk (swamytk)]

I have been assigned this task by myself. I use to talk about Linux,Ubuntu and free software when ever there is a space to talk. I use to get the Ubuntu CDs from shipit and distribute to non linux people (note that, i am not distributing to people who already use linux). I fix the Ubuntu stickers on my home, Bike and workspace,... I use to review Linux distributions and report bug if any. This is how I am working on this bug :-)

[ChrisLees (christopher-lees)]

While shopping for RAM, I reproduced the bug. Upon asking a computer salesperson if they would consider selling computers with Linux preloaded, I was given the reply "No; Linux is a good operating system but it doesn't have retail value".

Also, a support customer was affected by the symptoms of the bug. Their computers were taking many minutes to start up due to the installed PC security suite, but migration of their computers was not possible because their child's school teaches Windows-specific computing. The bug obviously affects Edubuntu, and I suggest a report be filed against it.

[Bernhard A. Jungert (bernhard-jungert)]

Partly present at my working place:
All the "operative" infrastructure (3000 Small Servers + 100 bigger ones) is running Linux, but the whole Backoffice (about 2500 Machines) are running Windows.
All in all i just saw 2 programs which required Win, used on probably 10 - 20 Boxes...
Switching could be easy, even the Laptops were issued just work fine, i tried with Knoppix and Ubuntu Live.

I cant get it.

[Alex Tanner (alex-alex-tanner)]

I tried to boot kubuntu live CD at Bestbuy and got kicked out. I told the GeekSquad peice of crap that I was going to buy the PC if it could boot kubuntu but they still threw me out.

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

> got kicked out

like physically, really? lol

> "No; Linux is a good operating system but it doesn't have retail value"

so they think they can't make money out of it. linspire's approach may be a possible fix to this (approach vendors directly so they sell your distro). but instead of walmart, I'd approach HP & IBM etc.

> because their child's school teaches Windows-specific computing

I wonder what that means

[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

Alex Tanner wrote:
> I tried to boot kubuntu live CD at Bestbuy and got kicked out. I told
> the GeekSquad peice of crap that I was going to buy the PC if it could
> boot kubuntu but they still threw me out.
>
Wow - that's pretty poor form on their part.

[Marco Cimmino (cimmo)]

In my opinion this bug is also a Linux failure.
This is because there are THOUSAND of different distributions, kernels, patched kernels, libraries ecc.

I know this is an advantage for someone, but for companies that have to write drivers and have:
- different version of libs in different distros
- different directory for libs
- different way to install something
- different kernel

how can we ask to produce a driver for all these stuff? We have to make ONE or TWO big distros and ask for support for those two, it's the only way that can save Linux and put up market share!
Writing drivers, software and testing all this stuff in a so heterogeneous environment cost too much!

Linux pay their free concept with less driver and apps.
In my opinion of course!

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

Cimmo wrote:
> In my opinion this bug is also a Linux failure. This is because there
> are THOUSAND of different distributions, kernels, patched kernels,
> libraries ecc.
>
> I know this is an advantage for someone, but for companies that have
> to write drivers and have: - different version of libs in different
> distros - different directory for libs - different way to install
> something - different kernel
>
> how can we ask to produce a driver for all these stuff? We have to
> make ONE or TWO big distros and ask for support for those two, it's
> the only way that can save Linux and put up market share! Writing
> drivers, software and testing all this stuff in a so heterogeneous
> environment cost too much!

they'll publish the specs, the community will do the rest... there
usually is at least one person who knows how to write code *and* who
uses one particular piece of hardware. not that hard for a company to
publish information about their own hardware, is it? ;)

or better yet, release the source code of the drivers: we'll compile the
distro-specific binaries if necessary (when the source code of a driver
is released under the GPL, afaik it is included into a later release of
the kernel unless it's some poor coding).

[DC@DR (bvdung81)]

This is the most "funny" and so-true "bug" I've ever seen. It's sad but true. What can we do to spread out the word "FOSS/Linux/Ubuntu" to the whole world population?! I know it's tough, but rewarding, to get people to realize how powerful and _just_work_ FOSS/Linux/Ubuntu are...Damn, I would so desperately love to see Ubuntu growing as fast as Firefox does currently...It would be so great :)

[Tommy Williams (talen-quickblade)]

I was able to confirm this bun in ~95% of instances during my testing. In addition I need to point out that some of the offices currently sporting this bug are chained to the Windows operating system by large software companies (like Intuit (author of Quicken products) that do not offer a ported version of their code. When discussing this bug with parties currently coping with its impact, all stated their willingness to correct the problem if their mission critical software ran on a linux Operating system.

In response to this I would like to make an addendum to the above bug report:

When observing / participating in the continuation of this bug:
1) Remind affected parties that applications for supporting windows software on linux do exist and are inexpensive compared to the cost of the Windows Operating system (Crossover Office). And some free solutions are available through not as feature rich (WINE).
2) Document which applications you or the affected party use that are not available in a linux flavor.
3) Email the respective companies questioning their lack of an available linux product.
     a) continue email correspondence with company until:
          * they explain why they do not offer a linux product.
          * they explain when (or why not) they will offer their product in a linux flavor.

[SkySpy247 (account2)]

Funny approach to a very serious issue !!

OSS desktop installs need to be "marketed" for what they are ... UPGRADES !!

So far I haven't been able to find a distro that will gather all the appropriate settings and data (pictures, MP3's, documents, spreadsheets, preferences, bookmaks, e-mail settings, all of it !!) from the outgoing M$ environment and put them in their propper places when the "upgraded" system re-starts.

It's too late for too many users to "start from scratch" and, no, folks will not properly backup their data to be incorporated in their new environment. The upgrade sequence needs to do it.

On the up side, 6 of 7 of my home PC's run *nix (FC4, and PCLinuxOS). My employer won't let me dump XP on my work machine.

Cheers !!

[Douglas Moyes (aragorn-stellimare)]

I sell computers, specifically in the Los Angeles, CA, USA area (though I plan to open a shop up in Vancouver, BC, Canada in a year or so, but I'll probably leave an office in LA too). The problem goes very deep because the way that Microsoft requires OEM's and small PC builders like me to market PCs: When giving the price of a PC we're not supposed to list the Microsoft OS as a separate component with a separate price associated with it. This effectively hides from the consumer the fact that a little screwed up piece of software accounts for a significant cost of their PC.

What I do to get around this is offer a “discount” for not shipping a computer win Microsoft Windows, or I offer custom systems simply with Linux or no operating system at all. For many people, they don't require the use of MS Windows or Microsoft Office, they can do everything they need in Linux, Open Office, and the 32-bit version of Firefox (Yes, the 64-bit versions of Linux should ship with a 32-bit browser so that the stupid Flash plugin can be installed so that all web pages, especially those made by incredibly stupid web designers, can be viewed-- there is no 64-bit or open source alternative available at this time).

Anyone in the USA can get a Windows-Free laptop from me with GeForce graphics, and 100% Linux compatible hardware (including the wi-fi card). All of my PCs are built with Linux in mind. Bug me at <email address hidden> :-D For those of you in other countries-- I can't export yet. I am required by US law to get a permit for each country and type of hardware I wish to export (and, as you know, all permits cost money). Due to other screwed up laws, I can't export Linux because it has advanced encryption technology. I think the export laws in Canada will be a little more sane, but we'll see.

There are many things in this country that have been screwed up since September 11, 2001 enough so to drive me out. Fear and hatred is a great way to excuse many things, just ask Adolph Hitler, Saddam, and Osama Bin Ladin. America now has it's secret police...

Out the four Linux distributions I've used, Ubuntu is one of the better, with a few Caveats: Why on earth aren't the compiler tools installed with the default system!?! The C compiler is one of the the basic Unix tools, in addition to the the Bourne Shell, VI, and cp! Not installing cc is a sacrilege! Also, not everyone has a high speed Internet connection, even in affluent America, so if not all the available packages for a basic usable system (which includes a video/DVD player like mplayer, and finance program like GnuCash) fit on the CD, then separate ISO package CDs should be made available for offline install of software.

[Yao Wei (medicalwei)]

It is really a BIG PROBLEM.

First, schools should teach the concept of free software, and how to use FL/OSS. One day I asked the dean why our school doesn't teach FL/OSS, she mentioned that the school is bound to teach commerical softwares because they paid the softwares.
Second, software developers have to develop softwares for a wide wange of platforms.(most for game developers, because my classmates are poisoned in games and also Windows.)
Third, There is too variety of Linux distributions. It makes people hard to determine which Linux distro they want to use. (Is it a connatural problem?)

I consider Windows as a gaming platform, but it is useless to do something more important.

/* poor grammer, sorry */

[Allen Graham (allenggraham)]

It looks like "Medical-Wei" has hit on one of the biggest problems, namely
the "variety" of Linux distros. There is too much unnessary friction among
the various groups, some for the valid reason that they are commercial, such
as "RED HAT". But Debian-Ubuntu-Mepis for example should work together, they
don't. This problem is as big as: "which is the best distro?"

On 10/27/06, Medical-Wei <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> It is really a BIG PROBLEM.
>
> First, schools should teach the concept of free software, and how to use
> FL/OSS. One day I asked the dean why our school doesn't teach FL/OSS, she
> mentioned that the school is bound to teach commerical softwares because
> they paid the softwares.
> Second, software developers have to develop softwares for a wide wange of
> platforms.(most for game developers, because my classmates are poisoned in
> games and also Windows.)
> Third, There is too variety of Linux distributions. It makes people hard
> to determine which Linux distro they want to use. (Is it a connatural
> problem?)
>
> I consider Windows as a gaming platform, but it is useless to do
> something more important.
>
> /* poor grammer, sorry */
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
>

--
>
http://adventures-with-the-rascals.blogspot.com/

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Allen Graham wrote:
> It looks like "Medical-Wei" has hit on one of the biggest problems, namely
> the "variety" of Linux distros. There is too much unnessary friction among
> the various groups, some for the valid reason that they are commercial, such
> as "RED HAT". But Debian-Ubuntu-Mepis for example should work together, they
> don't. This problem is as big as: "which is the best distro?"
>

I have to disagree on this one... distro variety is nice, until you get
to a point where you can roll out your own distro (then you won't need
to look around to choose a distro).

the variety ensures that everyone gets a distro to their own specific
needs & desires. These change according to a range of variables such as
the aim one has (business / server / home use / gaming / showoff /
other) in mind, the machine's age (very old / old / new-ish), the
favorite X environment (gnome / kde / icewm / xfce / openbox etc), and
even the favorite email client (thunderbird / mutt / evolution / etc).

It's rather difficult to attract this kind of diversity with just one
(or a couple of major) distros. and people don't like much to tweak this
and that to get to what they need (especially if they can tweak this and
that once, and roll the result out as a new distro).

for the "which is the best distro" question, there never is an answer.
(except) The best distro is the one that fits your needs and desires the
best. Until you get to the point where you are ready to make a choice,
you have to either try out a few or go to a site like
http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/index.php?firsttime=true (google for
"distro chooser") and trust in their answer after you take the survey.
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[Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)]

Allen Graham wrote:
> But Debian-Ubuntu-Mepis for example should work together, they
> don't.
>
Actually, there's a tremendous amount of collaboration between those
three. And then there are incidents where people disagree. If you look
at the actual flow of code, there's a lot that goes in both directions.

Mark

[Allen Graham (allenggraham)]

We note that Mark makes an excellent point, but most of us believe that the
spirit of co-operation emanates from "Ubuntu". Again, thanks to Canonical.
We need more people like Mark, that would overcome the "BUG" problem !!!!
Allen

On 10/28/06, Mark Shuttleworth <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> Allen Graham wrote:
> > But Debian-Ubuntu-Mepis for example should work together, they
> > don't.
> >
> Actually, there's a tremendous amount of collaboration between those
> three. And then there are incidents where people disagree. If you look
> at the actual flow of code, there's a lot that goes in both directions.
>
> Mark
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
>

--
>
http://adventures-with-the-rascals.blogspot.com/

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

Only if we could get institutions like universities, government agencies, schools, NGOs to use linux, we would have a serious shot at eliminating this bug for good. people are exposed to and use these institutions' computers and get used to whatever they provide. this is my girlfriend's idea, who says if this was the case when she first started studying at her university, where she had to work extensively with that institution's computers, she wouldn't have any problems switching to linux for good. but right now, she is a Windows addict and there is no way she will switch (not until XP deprecates and I kinda "force" her to switch instead of purchasing a new pc).

for now, even if a university has a linux box, they hide the OS as much as possible (for example, an old PC at UMBC's parking services runs Debian but hides this by locking the screen in such a way that anyone not familiar with Debian's bookmarks would think that's Windows running).

institutions should be "brave" enough to run and show off their Linux boxes. Moreover, they should be "clever" enough to know that if they run linux, they won't be paying $$$ to licenses.

On the issue of license fees, why would, for example, an animal shelter purchase Microsoft (or go thru the hops and tops of getting free licenses with much effort), especially when the $$ or the effort that goes to MS means their animals' lives... I don't get it...

Institutions need to see how their budget would change for the better without the MS fees and security maintenance efforts... And unfortunately, I don't see a way to let them know about this except by contacting each and every institution one can think of to propose a switch to Linux.

[HighlandMagic (highlandmagic)]

Microsoft are a greedy shower, and as for gates, the man could by half the world with all his personal fortune, or should I say a tiny biy of it?
I have used computers for more than 15 years and in that time from dos 4.0 through to Windows XP Pro I have never paid Microsoft and Gates one penny/cent. All my software I have found through friends and the internet and all I CAN SAY IS thanks Bill baby you certainly have not profited from me!
As for Linux I have to say it is far and away far more stable and so far, virus free, and as for ubuntu I have tried an old copy but it was, I have to say, not very good at all, mandrake was excellent and various other flavours, but none could ever get my winmodem to work, wonder if kubuntu can manage it.I would love all vendors to sell computers software free, so we the end user, could make an informed choice.
I will do my bit to distribute the free discs I shall be recieving shortly (ubuntu) to undermine in a very small way, the swine that are Microsoft.

[unsung (shyguyfrenzy)]

I have to admit myself, that this bug is huge in PA. People including myself have been pretty ignorant to the whole idea that there ARE other operating systems out there. For instance it wasn't until last year, that I even realized how badly I "wanted" a Mac or even knew how one ran. So when I bought a Mac computer, I was excited until I tried to use anything on it, and realized that in order to run a ton of major applications you needed UPGRADES. At the time my computer was running 10.2.8. So all the popular known installs would install bounce on the dock and disappear.

A couple months later I sold it and got a PC. I've been using PC's for a number of years (I did start out on an old apple aloooong time ago but that's other news) so once again arrogance and ignorance is partially to blame.

Then when I got my PC I discovered that the half wit who installed (he said he upgrade from NT to XP) XP he foobarred something and there wasn't any sound. At first it didn't matter, but you know you are doing something, project and you need tunes man.

Well I tried fixing it myself, and came across someone who told me to try Ubuntu, I was hesitant because I'd never heard of "linux" before and was programmed to think that Windows was the end all of everything. I fought with the decision for a month, until I foobarred everything up so bad Windows didn't even run. I quickly burned off a copy and tried linux.

Now, I admit it was an easy install. There wasn't 30 minutes of looking at the same splash screen of Microsoft XP features over and over again, and you could pretty much surf the web or other things while you install.

But after installation I had no idea what to do next. I didn't know you needed to the gstreamer plugins, or to apt-get anything. I didn't know how to mount my drive because all of that stuff ALREADY WORKED in windows (aside from sound) which by the way sound worked right out of the box with Ubuntu. I think I reinstalled Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Gentoo at least 6 or 7 times, and obtained Windows again which is what I'm currently running.

I also have to admit, it isn't easy coming back now. I've been doing things the "ubuntu" way for a little over a month and still try and use the "terminal/command line" for everything. The only reason I came back to Windows? Compatibility with certain things I wanted (Last.fm never worked for me on Ubuntu, even Lastproxy or lastexit were duds) and games. (RO, which ended up eating up too much HD and was slow so I uninstalled.)

The point of this is to show that I am indeed in that majority of the population who are pretty ignorant to ubuntu's ways. Ubuntu IS glorious, and I WILL go back (as soon as I get a livecd to work in this dang computer) but for now. M$ I guess.

[Albert Cardona (cardona)]

Education. Seamless hardware recognition. Education. Meet the users mental model. Education. What can be done automatically should never be visible from the desktop. Education. Early exposure to Ubuntu or other GNU/Linux: primary schools, home, high-school, universities. Education. And public awareness!

[Manoj Nair (manoj.nair)]

Lets face it, There are two major reasons for why microsoft dominates the desktop PC market.

The first major reason for the success that windows enjoys is due to the fact that countless softwares exist for windows, for every small task from helping an individual make a PDF file to complete softwares. Anything you wanna do, There is already a software for windows that exists to make your life easier. Whats more convenient is that you can get this software for free from your friendly neighborhood warez site.

Another glaring problem is the device support. Any linux user will agree that there is a lack for supported devices in the linux world. The supportive answer given by linux gurus is to make your own drivers. Yea, right... like every single individual is a computer science graduate capable of writing drivers as easily as writing a word document.

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

Manoj Nair wrote:
> Lets face it, There are two major reasons for why microsoft dominates
> the desktop PC market.

Should we be adding one more reason for this bug's existance? Namely,
Linux companies (Novell) willing to do business (that specifically
promotes the patent fud) with Microsoft?

[christthi (christthi)]

The main reason why Microsoft dominates the market is market pressure itself, which means pressuring distributors and dealers to sell its crappy merchandise through "cross-marketing" (selling expensive Windows licenses, proprietary products, etc) and paying , schools, universities, as well as IT professionals to use and work under their software.

Everybody that uses Linux will confirm that this free OS has overcome in the recent few years most of the incompatibility issues it was known for for a long time. The reality is that you'll have a hard time finding a desktop computer, or even laptop, that can't digest a Linux installation without much problems. I'm an ex-Mac user, and know for sure how false ideas on non-Windose software and products usually keep getting tagged with being "incompatible" and "user unfriendly", and this, years after these issues have been solved.

One poster here previously said that Linux is still not an "idiot-proof" OS, and it's damn right!

I do agree it's about time to pressure computer stores into accepting Ubuntu into their systems, but it's very idealistic, and unless radical and original means of action are taken by the Linux users, that won't change for a looong time. I rather think organisations such as Canonical are the best positioned for convincing computer store chains and local retailers as well to opt for Ubuntu or some other user-friendly distro (especially Fedora Core, Mandriva or SUSE). Sellers usually receive "orders from the top", and then they respond to customer demand in relation to that; never to customer's demands alone...

BUT, there is a market where Linux CAN potentially do a takeover within a reasonable timeframe, and it has proven to be very viable in many contexts: the public sector. I mean mostly education (higher and lower) and government, or community organisations. There's already many groups everywhere in the world doing pressure and education for this to happen, and it's progressing quite well as far as I know...

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

christthi wrote:
[snip]
> BUT, there is a market where Linux CAN potentially do a takeover within
> a reasonable timeframe, and it has proven to be very viable in many
> contexts: the public sector. I mean mostly education (higher and lower)
> and government, or community organisations. There's already many groups
> everywhere in the world doing pressure and education for this to happen,
> and it's progressing quite well as far as I know...
>

A spec of mine* (linked to this bug) comes to my mind while reading the
above suggestion :)

* "Promote Linux on Public Domains" --
https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/institutional-linux

[omoti (omoti)]

hello
I am from Japan
I have just registeredd to this service
but I can not understand
hot to use this site.
My project is that
I have a Japanese language CGI game
and I want to translate this product into
English.
Can anyone teach me how to use this site?
thanks.

[Michael (michaeljt)]

I suspect that, unlike their Linux counterparts, most Windows users choose their operating system based on pragmatic considerations, including but certainly not limited to, what is already on their computer.

My wife has tried out Kubuntu and decided that it has too many rough edges - such as that we have to start the wireless manually, as NetworkManager doesn't like our card with WPA - and these cost her time and energy. She uses Linux if the computer is already running it and she has no major work to do, otherwise she will boot Windows.

If people here are serious about getting Windows users to switch, they might want to try the following: get a Windows user (or several) to test run Ubuntu for a while, taking notes about difficulties and annoyances they encounter. Then submit bug reports for as many of those as possible, or add comments to existing reports. This will ensure that issues get looked at which genuinely matter to Windows users, and will probably be more effective than just announcing to all that Ubuntu is better - even if it is for you, it may not be for those you would like to convince.

[Michael (michaeljt)]

Re the last, see Novell's

http://www.betterdesktop.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main

[Jarno H. (jarno-hiltunen-saunalahti)]

True. MS has gained most of the markets. But nothing lasts forever, it´s possible to get people on move thru corporate field. We are living interesting times my friends.
Corps are currently evaluating next OS, and comparison is done between Linux or Vista. MS is currently pushing wildly Vista to corporates, but Linux has huge advantanges on this round. Vista is totally new system, binary break and so called secure OS is already falling apart. Pro list in Vista is short. Some what better gaming experience and DX10. Where corps need these features? They don´t. Why corporates have choosed Windoze before? Simple, because of Office applications. OpenOffice wipes table with current MS Office packages, when comparing price/quality rate. They know this and it can be seen as the "patent war". With this harrassing they try to drive corporates to Vista and choose the "unrisky" OS. The line must hold in this "war".
What I mean by getting Ubuntu to people thru corporate field? Who uses computers in corporates? People. If corporate chooses Linux, then people are forced to "learn" using Linux and they will notice how easy it is to use. Perhaps they will acquire Linux to home also after this.
My girlfriend wonder once what has happend to WXP desktop, when I installed Ubuntu and had (gnome) desktop open. (I have dual boot, because I´m gamer.) She has this funny idea, that Linux is still the command shell OS and most of the people has this same idea also. This general misunderstanding should be removed from peoples head. We should install new thoughts like you can do same things than with MS OS, and for free. It´s different but you can still browse, use im, skype, send email and make documents.
Remember folks, open standard has always won. Why not in OS side also.
Big thanks to Mark for support.

-JH

[Tobster (toby-whaymand)]

It true in the UK too PC World and all the other stores only sale computers with MS Windows on it, but it gets worst! You try and find non Microsoft software like Star Office, it impossible, the only way I know how to buy Star Office is by Sun Micro Systems own web page.

The only real bug that Ubuntu got is that it driving me crazy trying to find a printer that I know will work on it. But I do love Ubuntu

[gourou76 (jimmypierre-rouen-france)]

We have a slightly different problem in France. Machines in stores are preinstalled with XP and Vista quite soon for a few reasons :

1. Training on Linux not generalized and not delivered by training centres equally in ratio with MS courses.
2. People use XP at work and associated desktop applications. They do not feel that they should use a different OS at home, hence be isolated in case of problems.
3. Genrally, they do not buy these applications, they copy for personal use and some editors allow this, antivirus for instance.
4. Primarily a language barrier problem, if one decides to go in at the deep end.
5. Then, we get into Technical Support, most of the guys at the stores don’t have a clue of what is Linux. The techies play games on XP, so why would they learn Linux?
6. Solidarity InterLugs. Why would somebody making a search on a search engine and discover interlugs wars for supremacy and control of X city be interested to be part of these communities, hence trolls. Linux appears in the eyes of the layman as an OS for a class of knowledgeable people to start with and that some Lugs will go as far as hacking other lugs site in order to be seen as _the_ lug of X city?
7. I have sort mentioned that earlier, games and applications, not the same on both platforms.
8. OEM agreements for selling motherboards etc?

Just my two cents,
Cheers,
Jimmy

[magilus (magilus)]

Sorry for the spam, I tried to "roll back" mostly everything made by d_jedi.

[towsonu2003 (towsonu2003)]

fixed format for readability... was that Steve Balmer?

[randyleepublic (public-randolphmlee)]

Microsoft deserves a majority market share. Despite its legion of warts, Microsoft Windows is the only operating system whose implementation approches understanding of the concept of the gui/command line dichotomy.

THE GUI/COMMAND LINE DICHOTOMY:
All command and control of the operating system should be available through gui widgets. SIMULTANEOUSLY, all command and control of the operating system should be available through terminal commands.

Windows has high system status courtesy of the registry. Windows has guis to control almost all its sub-systems. Most Windows guis work intuitively as expected. Windows has terminal commands for most controls.

The current state of Ubuntu is not even close. Some Ubuntu guis defeat the command line. Some Ubuntu gui widgets that fail to control the operating system. Many Ubuntu sub-systems can only be controlled by commands. Worse: Ubuntu's reliance on disoranized and poorly documented text files for configuration settings severely degrades its system status.

Bug no. 1 will only be fixable through Ubuntu when Ubuntu offers a SYSTEM that is in the same league as Windows.

public by randolphmlee no spam (" by " = "@", " no " = ".", "spam" = "com")

[d_jedi (spymac-sucks)]

DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS.
DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS.
DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS.

[mommedia.com (dcodex2013-deactivatedaccount)]

Microsoft has a majority market share because MS provides drivers for almost all the existing devices, specially printers. With Linux/Ubuntu the printer drivers do not work; so how can you expect EUs to adapt to something that it's not fully functional?

People will always have to depend on the money driven MS for that particular reason; but I can assure you that as soon as Linux starts providing universal support for all these devices and on line streaming features, then it will be the end of the Money Driven Empire.

Lets face it, Ubuntu has come a long way and we should be thankful for it, I am! With that said, only you can make it a difference by educating the rest of the world about Linux/Ubuntu, forget about the U.S.A. they love they stock prices go up! Start by educate the developing Countries and have them move to Linux/Ubuntu today and then you will see a tremendous difference.

[mommedia.com (dcodex2013-deactivatedaccount)]

Microsoft has a majority market share because MS provides drivers for almost all the existing devices, specially printers. With Linux/Ubuntu the printer drivers do not work; so how can you expect EUs to adapt to something that it's not fully functional?

People will always have to depend on the money driven MS for that particular reason; but I can assure you that as soon as Linux starts providing universal support for all these devices and on line streaming features, then it will be the end of the Money Driven Empire.

Lets face it, Ubuntu has come a long way and we should be thankful for it, I am! With that said, only you can make it a difference by educating the rest of the world about Linux/Ubuntu, forget about the U.S.A. they love their stock prices to go up! Start by educate the developing Countries and have them move to Linux/Ubuntu today and then you will see a tremendous difference.

[mommedia.com (dcodex2013-deactivatedaccount)]

Your note key is China, get it!

[mommedia.com (dcodex2013-deactivatedaccount)]

こんにちは2006-11-20 18:58のomotiから: 02 UTC

こんにちは
私は私がこのサービス
に公正なregistereddを有する私は熱い
この場所を使用するために理解
できない日本からある。
私のプロジェクトは私が
日本語CGIのゲームを有し、
英語にこのプロダクトを翻訳したいと思うこと
である。
だれでもこの場所を使用する方法を私に教えることができるか。
ありがとう。
========================================
こんにちはOmoti、

私はこの情報があなたにまだ有用であることを望む。

簡単、 all theページをあなたの言語に翻訳するため、 Firefoxのブラウザを使用しなければならない。 ブラウザの用具セクションで選ぶ:
延長はこれ{より多くの延長を得れば}つけるそれを読む訳者がダウンロードのためにあるページに得るまで続く延長につながるあなたのブラウザのための付加的な延長をダウンロードすることができるページに連れて行くリンクの別の箱を開発する。

ダウンロードした、取付けた後言語旗は右下隅で現われる、 そこに旗アイコンの右クリックによって言語選択のリストを開けることによってに翻訳するために言語を選ぶことができる。 ページはに従って翻訳する:
英語から日本語そしてそうで….

それ以上の質問を有すれば幸運付加的な助けを要求し。 私はこれがあなたのために働くことを望む、 sayonara。

[klittzzer (klittzzer)]

I have recently switched from windows to Ubuntu and now Kubuntu over the last couple of weeks after 18 years 'liking and lumping' Windows. Initially I found the 'rough edges' (Mentioned - 'Michael 23/11/06) to be nothing other than, for eg, having to configure my USB modem and tiscali UK ADSL connection. Having spent a small amount of time actually inputting a few commands into 'terminal' or 'konsole', I now regard these 'rough edges' (bugs??) to be hugely valuable and 'user friendly', dare I say it, aspects of the KDE GUI experience and have benefitted from not simply double clicking an icon and a few subsequent buttons in order to install a piece of modem script.

Windows converts may not all share my feelings with regards to learning about the computers they spend time on and don't have the time to go through such procedures (times money, blah . . .), so I can see how the post mentioned above may be of benefit to bug#1 in the UK, which is virtually the US but a few months behind, and pounds below economically, and thus a large inflator of Microsofts share price.

By far the most promising means of exposing such an inherently good operating system and all of its virtues is by making the best use of its best asset- the fact that it is free, and target those who do not live in obscene relative luxury (yet relative luxury nonetheless) in Western Europe and the USA, and those who reside in the less developed/un-developed(food, hygeine, etc is a priority and their right, along with comms) denizens of the world. In the UK, the education system is seriously strapped for cash and here is an operating system that 'teaches' people how to use it. If enough teachers can somehow be introduced to these benefits, and I am sure that some are already, would demand of that size create a supply of blank machines or Open Source loaded computers? I don't know for sure but it all points to targetting the less monied in a sensible way.

I was converted in minutes of first booting Ubuntu and I had no idea how I was going to get on the web. Now I have an OS which far outstrips anything I have ever bought in a box. I feel there is a lot of promise in this software, agree wholeheatedly with bug#1, and will persist in looking in to it to try and help towards a solution.

I would happily give my time in helping to address this bug for I feel compassionatley about the Open Source issue and ideology. If I can help in any way, not writing code or that kind of stuff yet, but if anything needs typing, printing, e-mails, letters, if stuff like that happens as a result of this site, don't hesitate to ask.

klittzzer

[Nemes Ioan Sorin (nemes-sorin)]

North of Romania - Bistrita - a small elegant town - December 2006 - I found that Ubuntu (6.10) was pre-installed on a new computer.

How I found that. A friend of mine tell me he can not install Word (MS word) on his new computer. Going there I see that he tried to install MS Office on Ubuntu ;)

So Ubuntu become a choice (that's good). Of course no video-audio codecs.

The guys from PC magazine dont have patience to install gstreamer & other codecs from "ugly" part. Even with Automatix or Easy Ubuntu. I'll go there to teach that.

Until now I do 8 Edgy Eft installations on my city. The big victory will be when I'll see Ubuntu on my city hall ( I need read-write on NTFS partition for that ).

[Josh (majik)]

Um, in Oregon we just run whatever operating system is appropriate for the job.

Linux doesn't work for everyone in every application, so we see this as a feature, not a bug.

[Axel de Mol (axeldemol)]

Well, here in het Netherlands it is also a major bug. I'm a student at a Business ICT education and almost everyone uses Windows over here. A few of my fellow classmates received Ubuntu CD's from me and tried it and were very satisfied with it. I'm all out of CD's so I already ordered some Ubuntu and Kubuntu CD's ;)) The problem for most of them is usability. They al want an out of the box, perfect performing operating system. The biggest problem we had with our laptops was wireless internet support, it's just one point that should be made easier. I know it's a driver problem but we will have to force hardware manufacturers to write drivers for other operating systems.

Besides of that we have to use windows software, our teachers force us for example to make database designs with the windows program Dezign. If we can't, we have to use Microsoft Visio. It's a great problem for me to promote Ubuntu at our school and the teachers want to know nothing about Linux. We need good replacements for those programs that can change the opinions at the schools. If the user is still dependant on a program, it will never switch to linux.

We also have to use programs like Word ofcourse, the .doc format is not that great but it's the only thing we can use. When I use open-office and send a file to a classmate, there are still some compatibility problems between the 2 programs. Open fileformats should fix that problem.

Another big problem is games, alot of people at my study like to play games and still have windows installed because of that. Force the game-companies to support linux or invent a way to easily run them on Ubuntu. Alot of my classmates want to change operating systems because they get crazy from maintaining Windows but they won't because of the hard- and software support.

I think that if you have the gamers using ubuntu and people in the working area, alot of people will switch.

Another thing, the GUI of the operating system is very important. Most people don't want to use the terminal, make it easier for them and maybe add some gimmicks. Make instant desktop search standard. People like those things. With XGL/Compiz and Beryl some big steps are made, if they get more complete and professional it gets more attractive for people to switch, but it must be easier. Take the example of Mac OSX, looks beautiful and easy to use, better than Windows, but people are still dependant on certain hard and software, and that's why not everyone is switching. If it is possible, combine great looks with usability and good hard- and software support.

Another thing, marketing. Get people to know about Ubuntu. Give free CD's with computer magazines and let them write articles about it. Individual users, promote linux with beginning computer users and install Ubuntu at peoples computers. There are a lot of ways to promote Ubuntu and the community can start with it.

Well, this was my story and I hope someone can do something with my opinion.

[Nemes Ioan Sorin (nemes-sorin)]

.. Possible response / ideea for solution. Status - Critical. Resolution - we must do something ..

Original (in romanian - from http://linux.hangar.ro/node/339 ):

"..Am primit de curand o intrebare de la un "coleg de retea" care suna cam asa Da ce pe linux poti sa asculti muzica?.Am ramas uimit si totodata exista si ceva adevar...remarc o lipsa a siturilor care sa se adreseze mai mult partii de Desktop a sistemelor Linux. Consider ca asta este cel mai mare impediment in propagarea sistemelor Linux la noi in tara.Atat timp cat pe marea majoritate a siturilor despre Linux gasim numai tutoriale legate de "shell, scripts, console, mount points, shell scripting, iptables..etc " (intelegeti unde bat..) cu siguranta utilizatorul de 12-18 ani nu va intelege care ar fi "necesitatea unei distributii Linux".
Consider ca ar trebui scoasa in evidenta mai mult partea Desktop decat cea de Server a sistemelor Linux.
..."

Translation :
-----------------------------
Recently, I received a question from a "network coworker " on this form : - but in wich Linux I can hear music ?. I was shocked ..and I must recognize how much truth I discovered here... I can remark a big loss regarding linux websites targeting on Desktop part of Linux. I consider this is the big bug on Linux propagation on our country ( and in world .NA ). As time as majority of linux on-line revues post only tutorials about "shell, scripts, console, mount points, shell scripting, iptables..etc " ( U know what I mean ... ) potentially new user with age between 12 to 18, certainly will not understand Linux role. "

I consider that Desktop part of Linux should see the light on the same manner as Server side, if not more.
 --------------------------------

No comment. This is a point of view taken from Linux Hangar. So, to eliminate bug nr. 1, we dont need to destroy Bill Empire - Is not enough - but we must speak about us. Not anyhow - using a clean / clear language for all.

Indeed > I wich Linux I can hear music ?

[Tommy (tom-h)]

Perhaps it's time for linux devs in general to think much more seriously about this one. After reading this:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html

I come away agreeing on most points - particularly that of media support. Considering the real issues inhibiting distribution and function within Linux are almost all legal-based, maybe it's time to throw some money at the problem. It may sound absurd, but how much - feasibly, would it take to just buy the rights to the problematic codecs/formats/whatever?

If this bug is to be solved before Vista becomes standard - or, if Vista isn't as much of a problem as many expect, Windows 64 - then I really don't think there are many options left open.

[Allen Graham (allenggraham)]

Thanks to Tom Halligan for pointing out the article by Messrs Raymond and
Landley. The problem, to oversimplfy, is that articles such as that are so
inaccurate that it clouds the real problem, first off I've been using a 64
bit O/S for 2 full years. Ubuntu Linux was the only system that I could get
to work. True, the 64 bit system is not fleshed out, and Microsoft has made
mockery of it with their XP-64. Apple is not even in consideration.
"Throwing money" at the problem would be a drastic mistake. Most people that
use Ubuntu are willing to share and help, but as Tom pointed out the legal
problem, created by the U.S. Patent Office, aided and abetted by Microsoft,
is the real culprit.
As well people (like me) use Ubuntu on important (buzz=mission critical)
systems that can not tolerate failure. BUT, there is a learning curve to
Linux, a big one, and Ubuntu may be the easiest approach, but not for the
'feint of heart'.
Help us overcome the big nasty problem created by the "Patent Office", call
or inundate with email, your elected representative, get him/her/it onside.
The U.S. created the problem, but there are many more of us out here in the
real world.
Allen Graham (Canada-Mexico)

On 12/24/06, Tommy <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> Perhaps it's time for linux devs in general to think much more seriously
> about this one. After reading this:
>
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-
> domination-201.html
>
> I come away agreeing on most points - particularly that of media
> support. Considering the real issues inhibiting distribution and
> function within Linux are almost all legal-based, maybe it's time to
> throw some money at the problem. It may sound absurd, but how much -
> feasibly, would it take to just buy the rights to the problematic
> codecs/formats/whatever?
>
> If this bug is to be solved before Vista becomes standard - or, if Vista
> isn't as much of a problem as many expect, Windows 64 - then I really
> don't think there are many options left open.
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
>

--
>
http://adventures-with-the-rascals.blogspot.com/

[Efrain Valles (effie-jayx)]

This Bug is very visible in my university.. www.urbe.edu . all technologies are oriented towards Microsoft Products. all education around microsoft. enabling university students to be only 90% ready for the real world...

it will be our task to spread ubuntu.

[Andy Brook (javahollic)]

In my company (global audio brand) bar one (mainframe) exception, all office applications and related systems run on windows. Inroads have been made in some areas with Edgy being used for development boxes, production 'appliances' and development/production servers.

We hand out Ubuntu CD's to anyone who expresses an interest but as with most corporate environments, we don't make the decisions, we can only demonstrate and advocate.

Re:previous posters comment, I couldn't agree more. If people aren't educated with regards to the bigger picture of OS's, they are destined to become the corporate decision makers of tomorrow, persisting the bug.

Self-preservation may also come into it - like 'nobody got fired for buying IBM kit' a decade or more ago, today 'nobody gets fired for buying M$ tech' - it maintains the status-quo and is within the decision makers comfort-zone (albeit quite small :)

In any case, Ubuntu works (mostly) for me and is getting better all the time, keep the good work up!

p.s. shameless bcm43xx bug plug: I _really_ would like this to work on a 64bit/2GB ram machine, though I'd settle for not causing a kernel panic :)