Train brakes won't release fully (X1455, Various routes)

[Bruce Kennewell]

Route = Various
Locomotives & Consists = Various.
Example presented = E-7 "Little Joe" on RMD_East route (Lukas Lusser).
Version OR = X1455

I am providing a .PNG screen-shot of the anomaly, but in essence what happens is that the train brakes do not fully release irrespective of how many times the ; Key is pressed.
This is not a regular, consistent anomaly; sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't, which made me wonder if it was an actual realistic effect that you have introduced.

[Bruce Kennewell (bhk)]

Screen-shot of the non-released train brakes, displaying the HUD information.

[Carlo Santucci (carlosanit1)]

I have this problem also in many Italian locos. I don't know if it is a bug of ORTS or if some parameters within the .eng file have an incorrect value.
In many locos I found such set of parameters
 AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure( 75 )
...
 AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure( 65 )
...
 EngineBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 75 )
...
                       TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 75 )

If I set AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure (and consequently also AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure) to a value higher than the third and the fourth parameter, I can release brakes.
You can try setting e.g. AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure to 100 and AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure to 90.
I don't know if this is physically correct, but it works to me.

[Bruce Kennewell (bhk)]

Thanks, Carlo.
I'll try that with the MILW electrics.

Regards,
Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: Carlo Santucci
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 8:50 PM
To: <email address hidden>
Subject: [Bug 1141551] Re: Train brakes won't release fully

I have this problem also in many Italian locos. I don't know if it is a bug
of ORTS or if some parameters within the .eng file have an incorrect value.
In many locos I found such set of parameters
AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure( 75 )
...
AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure( 65 )
...
EngineBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 75 )
...
                       TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 75 )

If I set AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure (and consequently also
AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure) to a value higher than the third and the
fourth parameter, I can release brakes.
You can try setting e.g. AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure to 100 and
AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure to 90.
I don't know if this is physically correct, but it works to me.

--
You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
report.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1141551

Title:
  Train brakes won't release fully

Status in Open Rails Tracker:
  New

Bug description:
  Route = Various
  Locomotives & Consists = Various.
  Example presented = E-7 "Little Joe" on RMD_East route (Lukas Lusser).
  Version OR = X1455

  I am providing a .PNG screen-shot of the anomaly, but in essence what
happens is that the train brakes do not fully release irrespective of how
many times the ; Key is pressed.
  This is not a regular, consistent anomaly; sometimes it happens and
sometimes it doesn't, which made me wonder if it was an actual realistic
effect that you have introduced.

To manage notifications about this bug go to:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1141551/+subscriptions

[virag mhatre (virag57)]

will anybody solve this bug ... its causing problem while playing acts

[cjakeman (cjakeman)]

Hi Virag,

Bruce described it as an intermittent problem with an example presented = E-7 "Little Joe" on RMD_East route (Lukas Lusser).

Before we can fix it, we have to be able to reproduce it, so we need to know the activity being run and where in the activity the problem arises.

Does it happen for you every time?
Does it happen when you substitute an MSTS loco?
What else can you tell us that will help us pin it down?

Thanks,

Chris

[virag mhatre (virag57)]

well ,
according to me and many fellow indian users
this error occurs almost everytime, with MSTS loco's too
we dont face this problem when we play indian models in MSTS ...even the
pressure is not shown in psi
the normal pressure should be 5psi bt its showing in bars something
in some consist these bug occurs, but slighthly ...for example the brakes
are released fully but very slowly ...while in some consist the brakes stop
releasing at a particular point ... then we have to come to a complete halt
and press shift + / to release the brakes
we have to make consist with 24 coaches in indian acts so it might also be
causing the problem

On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:19 PM, cjakeman <email address hidden>wrote:

> Hi Virag,
>
> Bruce described it as an intermittent problem with an example presented
> = E-7 "Little Joe" on RMD_East route (Lukas Lusser).
>
> Before we can fix it, we have to be able to reproduce it, so we need to
> know the activity being run and where in the activity the problem
> arises.
>
> Does it happen for you every time?
> Does it happen when you substitute an MSTS loco?
> What else can you tell us that will help us pin it down?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1141551
>
> Title:
> Train brakes won't release fully
>
> Status in Open Rails Tracker:
> Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> Route = Various
> Locomotives & Consists = Various.
> Example presented = E-7 "Little Joe" on RMD_East route (Lukas Lusser).
> Version OR = X1455
>
> I am providing a .PNG screen-shot of the anomaly, but in essence what
> happens is that the train brakes do not fully release irrespective of how
> many times the ; Key is pressed.
> This is not a regular, consistent anomaly; sometimes it happens and
> sometimes it doesn't, which made me wonder if it was an actual realistic
> effect that you have introduced.
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1141551/+subscriptions
>

[cjakeman (cjakeman)]

Hi Virag,

"almost everytime" is good because it will be easier to find.

I've got to see it on my PC before I can fix it. You have to help me re-create the problem so I must ask you once again:

- What is the activity being run and where in the activity does the problem arise?
- Where can we download a copy of this route and this activity?
- Which MSTS loco did it happen with?

Thanks,

Chris

[virag mhatre (virag57)]

almost every model and route and activity it happens
u can try any indian model
i did 3 test right now on a default msts route
test 1 :
route : tokyo hakone -------------- explore route ---- consist : single
indian loco without any coaches in consist
applied brake till 40 % , BP dropped to 96, when released BP instanlty
raised to 110
so no problem in single loco
when i tried the same loco with some 18-20 coaches of indian model
applied brake till 40 % , BP dropped to 96, when released BP started
raising , but it slowed down at 101 , slowly it increased till 104 but then
it almost got stuck at 104, then i stopped the loco and released using
shift + /

test 2 :
route : northeast corridor ---------- activity : morning in maryland
braked released perfectly in this one

test 3
route : northeast corridor --- explore activity --- consist indian loco
with 8-9 coaches
applied brake till 45%, BP dropped to 96 something, when released BP raised
till 104 then slowed down and then got stuck at 106

the link for stock used in 3rd test are given below
loco link : http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/tslib.php?do=copyright&fid=29503
coaches : http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/tslib.php?do=copyright&fid=26033

make a consist of this loco with 18-20 coaches given above and test it in
any route ... i dont think route is creating this issue , even when loco is
single without any coaches the chances are less, i think the physics for
coaches and loco are not matching leading to this issue

On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 1:28 PM, cjakeman <email address hidden>wrote:

> Hi Virag,
>
> "almost everytime" is good because it will be easier to find.
>
> I've got to see it on my PC before I can fix it. You have to help me re-
> create the problem so I must ask you once again:
>
> - What is the activity being run and where in the activity does the
> problem arise?
> - Where can we download a copy of this route and this activity?
> - Which MSTS loco did it happen with?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1141551
>
> Title:
> Train brakes won't release fully
>
> Status in Open Rails Tracker:
> Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> Route = Various
> Locomotives & Consists = Various.
> Example presented = E-7 "Little Joe" on RMD_East route (Lukas Lusser).
> Version OR = X1455
>
> I am providing a .PNG screen-shot of the anomaly, but in essence what
> happens is that the train brakes do not fully release irrespective of how
> many times the ; Key is pressed.
> This is not a regular, consistent anomaly; sometimes it happens and
> sometimes it doesn't, which made me wonder if it was an actual realistic
> effect that you have introduced.
>
> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/or/+bug/1141551/+subscriptions
>

[virag mhatre (virag57)]

just now tried a default activity of msts too,
route : northeast corridor
activity : summer express
brake applied till 40 %, BP drops to 96, when released the pressure starts
raising but at 105 it gets very slow, and then slowly slowly it raised to
109 and then stuck
when applied again the BP stuck at 101

On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 2:46 PM, virag mhatre <email address hidden> wrote:

> almost every model and route and activity it happens
> u can try any indian model
> i did 3 test right now on a default msts route
> test 1 :
> route : tokyo hakone -------------- explore route ---- consist : single
> indian loco without any coaches in consist
> applied brake till 40 % , BP dropped to 96, when released BP instanlty
> raised to 110
> so no problem in single loco
> when i tried the same loco with some 18-20 coaches of indian model
> applied brake till 40 % , BP dropped to 96, when released BP started
> raising , but it slowed down at 101 , slowly it increased till 104 but then
> it almost got stuck at 104, then i stopped the loco and released using
> shift + /
>
> test 2 :
> route : northeast corridor ---------- activity : morning in maryland
> braked released perfectly in this one
>
> test 3
> route : northeast corridor --- explore activity --- consist indian loco
> with 8-9 coaches
> applied brake till 45%, BP dropped to 96 something, when released BP
> raised till 104 then slowed down and then got stuck at 106
>
> the link for stock used in 3rd test are given below
> loco link : http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/tslib.php?do=copyright&fid=29503
> coaches : http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/tslib.php?do=copyright&fid=26033
>
> make a consist of this loco with 18-20 coaches given above and test it in
> any route ... i dont think route is creating this issue , even when loco is
> single without any coaches the chances are less, i think the physics for
> coaches and loco are not matching leading to this issue
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 1:28 PM, cjakeman <email address hidden>wrote:
>
>> Hi Virag,
>>
>> "almost everytime" is good because it will be easier to find.
>>
>> I've got to see it on my PC before I can fix it. You have to help me re-
>> create the problem so I must ask you once again:
>>
>> - What is the activity being run and where in the activity does the
>> problem arise?
>> - Where can we download a copy of this route and this activity?
>> - Which MSTS loco did it happen with?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> --
>> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
>> report.
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1141551
>>
>> Title:
>> Train brakes won't release fully
>>
>> Status in Open Rails Tracker:
>> Triaged
>>
>> Bug description:
>> Route = Various
>> Locomotives & Consists = Various.
>> Example presented = E-7 "Little Joe" on RMD_East route (Lukas Lusser).
>> Version OR = X1455
>>
>> I am providing a .PNG screen-shot of the anomaly, but in essence what
>> happens is that the train brakes do not fully release irrespective of how
>> many times the ; Key is pressed.
>> This is not a regular, consistent anomaly; sometimes it happens and
>> sometimes it doesn't, which made me wonder if it was an...

[cjakeman (cjakeman)]

Hi Virag,

Thanks. That's something concrete I can work with.

I'll post here with progress or more questions.

Chris

[Carlo Santucci (carlosanit1)]

First the easy topic: since release 2241 the unit of measure of pressure is determined by the one used within the .cvf file. There is also an option within the General ones to state the preferred unit of measure.
Referring to braking problems maybe there is a bug, maybe there isn't. The problem is that many .eng files have non-coherent braking parameters. MSTS does not care for this, while OR uses such braking parameters in a more prototypical way. Therefore, if they are not coherent, problems can arise.
To be more precise at least following rules must be followed in defining the braking parameters:
1) Obviously AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure must be > than AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure
2) AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure must be > than TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure, else the controller pressure may drop below the MaxSystemPressure (due to braking) and stay there even by releasing brake, because the compressor does not restart
3) AirBrakesMainResVolume must have a sufficient value so as to recharge also a long train
4) TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate and TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate must have a value high enough to not slow too much discharging and recharging the brakes along the train
5) Within the Options of the Open Rails menu the recharge rate must be set to a convenient value.
Probably there are other conditions to be checked

This is a possible set of values:
AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure( 145 )
 AirBrakesMainResVolume( 40 )
 AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure( 115 )
 TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 75 )
 TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 10 )
 TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 10 )

  EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure may be set to 75, while
  BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce may be set to 55

 A possible value for the recharge rate within the Open Rails menu is 63.

Referring to the Acela case I don't know what to say because it has a dual pipe system.

However I have a change proposal for Chris that will make many OR users hail it: the brake reset command (that isn't prototypical, but saves many stuck cases) should be active also on moving trains. That would not make it less prototypical, but on the contrary would avoid the non-prototypical train stops necessary now to reset the brakes because the loco parameters are only MSTS compatible and not OR compatible.

[virag mhatre (virag57)]

yes the brake reset command should be active also on moving trains at
least till this bug isn't solved

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 1:44 AM, Carlo Santucci <email address hidden>wrote:

> First the easy topic: since release 2241 the unit of measure of pressure
> is determined by the one used within the .cvf file. There is also an option
> within the General ones to state the preferred unit of measure.
> Referring to braking problems maybe there is a bug, maybe there isn't. The
> problem is that many .eng files have non-coherent braking parameters. MSTS
> does not care for this, while OR uses such braking parameters in a more
> prototypical way. Therefore, if they are not coherent, problems can arise.
> To be more precise at least following rules must be followed in defining
> the braking parameters:
> 1) Obviously AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure must be > than
> AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure
> 2) AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure must be > than
> TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure, else the controller pressure may
> drop below the MaxSystemPressure (due to braking) and stay there even by
> releasing brake, because the compressor does not restart
> 3) AirBrakesMainResVolume must have a sufficient value so as to recharge
> also a long train
> 4) TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate and
> TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate must have a value high enough to not
> slow too much discharging and recharging the brakes along the train
> 5) Within the Options of the Open Rails menu the recharge rate must be set
> to a convenient value.
> Probably there are other conditions to be checked
>
> This is a possible set of values:
> AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure( 145 )
> AirBrakesMainResVolume( 40 )
> AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure( 115 )
> TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 75 )
> TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 10 )
> TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 10 )
>
> EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure may be set to 75, while
> BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce may be set to 55
>
> A possible value for the recharge rate within the Open Rails menu
> is 63.
>
> Referring to the Acela case I don't know what to say because it has a dual
> pipe system.
>
> However I have a change proposal for Chris that will make many OR users
> hail it: the brake reset command (that isn't prototypical, but saves
> many stuck cases) should be active also on moving trains. That would not
> make it less prototypical, but on the contrary would avoid the non-
> prototypical train stops necessary now to reset the brakes because the
> loco parameters are only MSTS compatible and not OR compatible.
>
> --
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug
> report.
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1141551
>
> Title:
> Train brakes won't release fully
>
> Status in Open Rails Tracker:
> Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> Route = Various
> Locomotives & Consists = Various.
> Example presented = E-7 "Little Joe" on RMD_East route (Lukas Lusser).
> Version OR = X1455
>
> I am providing a .PNG screen-shot of the anomaly, but in essence what
> happens is that the train br...

[Cédric GNIEWEK (sharpeserana)]

Does the problem still happen with version 1.4?

[Derek Morton (derek-a)]

bug not reproduceable in 1.4