Unable to subscribe people to a mailing list

Bug #708223 reported by James Westby
6
This bug affects 1 person
Affects Status Importance Assigned to Milestone
Launchpad itself
Triaged
Low
Unassigned

Bug Description

Hi,

Currently when I create a mailing list for a team I can't add people to it.

Recently I created a team in order to get the mailing list, added people to the team,
and then had to use "contact the team" to send an email asking them to subscribe.
It didn't go very well, with some not subscribing (some weren't LP-savvy which might
not have helped).

This annoys me, as it doesn't allow me to manage things as I like.

Thanks,

James

Revision history for this message
Barry Warsaw (barry) wrote :

I agree that this is very often a PITA. The counter argument is that it's bad etiquette (and in some places illegal) to sign people up for mailing lists without their approval (i.e. opt-out). We've so far erred on the side of requiring opt-in for mailing lists.

Maybe we need to loosen that constraint, but what conditions should apply to opt-out subscriptions? Perhaps we can inform users when they sign up for Launchpad, that their emails may get subscribed to mailing lists. We could make it even easier for them to opt-out, or we could allow people to set something in their account that would prevent someone else from subscribing them (i.e. force opt-in).

Anyway, it could use some thought, but I have also been in this situation, and I agree it's not great.

Curtis Hovey (sinzui)
Changed in launchpad:
status: New → Triaged
importance: Undecided → Low
Revision history for this message
Curtis Hovey (sinzui) wrote :

We consider this a spam vector and will not implement it without safe guards that protect the community. The fundamental problem though is lower in the chain of events. You should not have been permitted to add users without their consent.

Since many teams exist only for community/communication, being a member of a team should mean you are subscribed. Users that do not want the list emails can leave the team. The launchpad-users list is such an example. The origin of this ridiculous team-list situation is that teams are also used for control, which conflicts with communication needs. The problem only exists for a small subset of teams that are are used for control, but also want a list. Launchpad could warn about the case and let the user proceed, knowing *every* member gets emails. If we fix the stupidity of this situation, this bug will implicitly be fixed.

tags: added: mailing-lists
Revision history for this message
James Westby (james-w) wrote : Re: [Bug 708223] Re: Unable to subscribe people to a mailing list

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:04:47 -0000, Barry Warsaw <email address hidden> wrote:
> I agree that this is very often a PITA. The counter argument is that
> it's bad etiquette (and in some places illegal) to sign people up for
> mailing lists without their approval (i.e. opt-out). We've so far erred
> on the side of requiring opt-in for mailing lists

I didn't know it would be illegal in places. Are, say, bug subscriptions
considered differently there. I can sign someone up for all the bug mail
from Ubuntu, which will be more mail than any Launchpad mailing list, so
I'm not sure about the ettiquette argument really holding up.

> Maybe we need to loosen that constraint, but what conditions should
> apply to opt-out subscriptions? Perhaps we can inform users when they
> sign up for Launchpad, that their emails may get subscribed to mailing
> lists. We could make it even easier for them to opt-out, or we could
> allow people to set something in their account that would prevent
> someone else from subscribing them (i.e. force opt-in).

This I'm not sure about. Perhaps we just change the way creating a new
mailing list for a team, or adding someone with a team to a mailing list
works?

Instead of inviting them to go to a page to configure things, send them
an email saying "You have been requested to join the mailing list for
~whatever, click here to accept", and then tell them about the ability
to unsubscribe, change the delivery email address etc. on the current
page.

I think that would have resulting in a higher percentage of
subscriptions in my case.

It would still be a bit annoying that I couldn't create a team, put
people in it, create a mailing list, and then email them all on the
mailing list, but it would avoid the issues around subscribing someone
else directly.

Thanks,

James

Revision history for this message
Curtis Hovey (sinzui) wrote :

On Wed, 2011-01-26 at 19:46 +0000, James Westby wrote:
> > I agree that this is very often a PITA. The counter argument is
> that
> > it's bad etiquette (and in some places illegal) to sign people up
> for
> > mailing lists without their approval (i.e. opt-out). We've so far
> erred
> > on the side of requiring opt-in for mailing lists
>
> I didn't know it would be illegal in places. Are, say, bug
> subscriptions
> considered differently there. I can sign someone up for all the bug
> mail
> from Ubuntu, which will be more mail than any Launchpad mailing list,
> so
> I'm not sure about the ettiquette argument really holding up.

We would close the bugs about this as wontfix or opinion if we thought
this was jut an ettiquette issue. I can discuss Lp spam concerns in
private channels if you like.

Revision history for this message
Barry Warsaw (barry) wrote :

On Jan 26, 2011, at 07:46 PM, James Westby wrote:

>I didn't know it would be illegal in places. Are, say, bug subscriptions
>considered differently there. I can sign someone up for all the bug mail
>from Ubuntu, which will be more mail than any Launchpad mailing list, so
>I'm not sure about the ettiquette argument really holding up.

Bug subscriptions are probably not different, but OTOH, this probably could be
solved with appropriate legalese in whatever LP terms of service you have to
agree to when you first register (you'll have to deal with changed ToS for
existing users of course).

There is one important difference from the general mailing list case. Only
users who are registered with Launchpad can be subscribed to its mailing
lists. Because you can't subscribe random email addresses to LP mailing
lists, and because users must register with LP, I think you could inform them
that they are implicitly allowing opt-out when they register.

It would be only fair to allow them to opt-out of opt-out (or, er opt-into
opt-in) via an account setting. I can almost guarantee there will be LP users
for whom opt-out will elicit loud complaints.

>> Maybe we need to loosen that constraint, but what conditions should
>> apply to opt-out subscriptions? Perhaps we can inform users when they
>> sign up for Launchpad, that their emails may get subscribed to mailing
>> lists. We could make it even easier for them to opt-out, or we could
>> allow people to set something in their account that would prevent
>> someone else from subscribing them (i.e. force opt-in).
>
>This I'm not sure about. Perhaps we just change the way creating a new
>mailing list for a team, or adding someone with a team to a mailing list
>works?
>
>Instead of inviting them to go to a page to configure things, send them
>an email saying "You have been requested to join the mailing list for
>~whatever, click here to accept", and then tell them about the ability
>to unsubscribe, change the delivery email address etc. on the current
>page.

This is similar to the Mailman 'invitation' feature. When doing a mass
subscription (yes, stock MM allows for opt-out, but it's discouraged and the
legal ramifications are the site and list owners), you can instead invite the
user to the mailing list. This sends them a message with an accept token. I
don't think LP can re-use the Mailman machinery, but it shouldn't be hard to
implement.

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