Guides : Change Guide UI to match Grid UI

[John Smith]

Change the Guide UI to match the Grid UI as below :

1. Guides would be off by default (if not specified in the doc)
2. Toggling "View->Guides" would create guides (same as "Edit->Create Guides Around the page") if there is no existing guide.
3. Add a button : "Document Properties->Guides->Remove Guides"
4. Remove menu item : "Edit->Create Guides Around the page"
5. Remove menu item : "Edit->Delete All Guides"

[su_v (suv-lp)]

> Change Guide UI to match Grid UI

Why? The usage of these two drawing aides differs.

Personally, I'd vote against a feature to enforce guides around the page for all files for all users:
1) There are workflows which rarely have use for guides around the page, but regularly use (add/edit/remove) guides elsewhere. You are asking users to remove them in each new document without the possibility to opt out.
2) What happens to existing documents, which intentionally use guides, not none around the page borders? Do users have to manually delete four unwanted guides individually each time they re-open a document and -during the current session - add / edit / remove individual guides (some other guides may be intentioned to be permanent or at least reused in the next session)?

[John Smith (john-smithi)]

> to enforce guides around the page
Nothing will be enforced. This is meant as a convenience for users when there are no exisiting guides, and they select "View->Guide" - it then creates some "default" guides (if there are none already) otherwise it simply show/hides the existing guides (current behavior)

> You are asking users to remove them in each new document without the possibility to opt out.
No guides are added to new documents. Guides are only added if the user explicitly selects the menu "View->Guide" *and* there are no guides in the document. Users can still add/edit/remove guides in the same way they do now (by dragging the ruler etc).

> What happens to existing documents, which intentionally use guides
Existing documents should not be affected at all.

[Kris (kris-degussem)]

Good observation. Uniformisation would be a good point.
I fail to see however, why guides as well as grids are a "Document property". In the current UI, they may fit better in the document properties window, though I do not feel happy with it. A better place is in the edit menu. The different options could be one beneath the other in "Edit" or in a submenu in "Edit". Any better options?

[su_v (suv-lp)]

> This is meant as a convenience for users when there are no
> exisiting guides, and they select "View->Guide" - it then
> creates some "default" guides (if there are none already)
> otherwise it simply show/hides the existing guides (current behavior)

Apologies - it seems that I misinterpreted "if there is no existing guide" as "if there is no existing guide at the page borders". I'm still not fully convinced - what happens if I hit the keyboard shortcut to toggle the visibility of guides without the intention nor need to create such default guides - in a new document, or just after having deleted all existing or the last remaining guide(s) in the current document?

> 4. Remove menu item : "Edit->Create Guides Around the page"

Why remove the menu item? Would you delete the verb as well (no more keyboard shortcut either)? Users may still want to be able to add such a predefined set of guides in a single step later on during the editing process…

> 3. Add a button : "Document Properties->Guides->Remove Guides"
> 5. Remove menu item : "Edit->Delete All Guides"

The command "Delete All Guides" has been requested repeatedly by users and was only recently added (in trunk) - why remove it from the menu and bury it in the 'Document Properties' dialog? Unlike (custom) grids, the deletion of all guides is a command which can be repeatedly required within a single editing session (depending on the workflow and nature of the drawing). Having it quickly accessibly from the main-window in a top-level menu is a useful feature IMHO.

<opinion>
I don't really understand why all guides-related stuff should be purged from the 'Edit' menu without finding a new place in the menu structure elsewhere (at least as long as Inkscape doesn't have existing proposals for improved guides management implemented).
</opinion>

[John Smith (john-smithi)]

> what happens if I hit the keyboard shortcut to toggle the visibility of guides without the intention nor need to create such default guides

I dont understand this use-case of toggling "no guides" on and off. Its can be confusing to users when nothing visually happens like this. If the intention is to create guides via dragging the ruler, or "Object to guides" the guide visibility is automatically toggled on for the user.
The same point can also be said for View->Grid. If users dont want any "defaults" then shouldn't both Guides and Grid be consistent and work the same way ?

> 4. Remove menu item : "Edit->Create Guides Around the page"
> 5. Remove menu item : "Edit->Delete All Guides"

Sure if these are frequently requested/used menu items, lets leave them there.

[John Smith (john-smithi)]

Attached patch to try it out and see if it is useful ...

[su_v (suv-lp)]

> I dont understand this use-case of toggling "no guides" on and off. (…)

If guides and grid(s) are used actively as drawing aids (as snap targets), their visibility is toggled on and off multiple times during each drawing session (as much as one does use different display modes (normal, no filter, outline), or change the zoom level). Unlike with the grid, there is no 'default' set of guides which would make sense to automatically create: their usage (number, position, slant) depends on the current task, and can change frequently.

If the user had not been using guides yet in a new document, it is to be expected that nothing changes when visibility of guides is toggled on. Maybe the better solution to provide user feedback would be to indicate the visibility status in the menu, instead of automatically inserting a set of presumably useful guides [1] each time their visibility is toggled on and no guides currently exist in the document.

[1] Guides around page are somewhat redundant since we have 'Snap to page borders'

[su_v (suv-lp)]

> Attached patch to try it out and see if it is useful ...

Tested with r11429: to me it's not useful - it's distracting and (slightly) annoying because it tends to add guides I do not want nor have use for to existing files (which at their current working state may have zero or more guides). I have to delete the unwanted guides each time I happen to trigger the auto-creation:

Whether or not guides around the page are automatically created cannot be known in advance unless one first inspects the file in the XML Editor to detect whether it has at least one guide defined: currently, the guides around the page are added even if a user only wants to check whether/which guides are present from the last editing session (one might be editing a file which was created or last edited by someone else).

The situation might be improved if a status indicator existed (guides in the current document are visible | are not visible) - in the menu and/or in the ruler area [1].

[1] On this related topic, see also bug #951580: RFE to make a click on the ruler act as toggle by detecting whether it's a click (toggle guides' visibility) or a click-drag (turn visibility on and create new guide).

[John Smith (john-smithi)]

OK, if its not useful lets drop it.
I set the status to "Invalid", is that enough ?