On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:40 AM, A. Denton <email address hidden> wrote:
> The bugs name should be altered. I think Microsoft is just one player in
> this game.

I agree with you. However, from all the players Microsoft is the one
that affects me most (in a negative way). And I say this although (or
maybe exactly because of that ;-) ) I still know Windows better than
Linux.


> The biggest problem right now is
> 'us'. I think we have a problem with Linux, with quality and with the
> direction in which things are going. Yes, I say we have a problem with
> quality and 100k+ bugs here.

Yes, you are right - too many bugs and e.g. such things as recently,
that an update of libreoffice makes all menus appearing empty should
definitely not occur (even if fixed pretty fast imagine how annoying
for all people under stress by finishing some documentation and then
menus are gone). So of course, quality should be better regardless of
the crap that others are producing. Pointing to others that they
produce even worse results is not a solution and bad behaviour even if
of course it is less annoying chosing the option that produces less
(long-term) troubles among the amount of crappy solutions.

And yes, instead of fighting (like Wayland vs Mir) there should be
more combined power.


> We have a problem with users still making a
> valid point in saying Ubuntu is to hard to install and to yet not usable
> in the same way and everywhere like the systems of our competitors.

The difference here is: The normal end user pretty seldom installs
Windows on his/her own (as in Companies this is done by IT departments
and at home by family members or friends who are more in IT - or it
already comes preinstalled) while Ubuntu they _have to_ install on
their own often because no Linux guy in reach and you can't get so
easily a machine with Linux preinstalled (we are back to bug #1 core
request here).


> All that is not Microsoft's fault. And even a major market share for a
> dinosaur like them is not a problem in the first place. However it
> matters whether our quality is better or not. Bill Gates was wrong when
> he replied to Jobs in the 80's that it doesn't matter. It does matter

Of course quality matters!
And if Ubuntu would be a type of "Download one single install medium
for everything - insert install medium - click ok for default install
(or advanced to reach the options for the IT guys) and run
out-of-the-box on any hardware" would be awesome so that even a
trained monkey could do it.

But still I see this as a secondary issue because installation is
already quite simple and easier than installing Windows (from scratch
with all the needed drivers).


On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Barry Drake <email address hidden> wrote:
> Part of the problem has to be OUR negative thinking.  "We have a problem
> with users still making a valid point in saying Ubuntu is to hard to
> install".  Just try installing Microsoft Windows from scratch.  The last
> fresh install of Ubuntu 13.10 took me less than twenty minutes and
> worked 'out of the box'.  On the same hardware, Windows 7 took about an
> hour plus the time finding drivers ...  Even then the resulting
> installation was far more clunky than the Alpha version of Ubuntu.

Yup, I have similar experiences - but as I mentioned earlier, "normal"
Users usually don't install their computer on their own. And further:
I know people who bought a new PC (completely new hardware + Windows
preinstalled) because their PC got viruses and they never got an
installation media when buying their PC (and of course didn't know
that somewhere at Microsoft you can download it - BTW never searched
myself for those, I just heard that this is possible).


> [..] their company
> is considering moving to Linux because Microsoft is not secure, and is
> unreliable these days.  Apple is too 'locked in'.  Linux is perfect for
> their needs.

Yes, there are these and other reasons to move to Linux. Despite many
advantages of course there are still issues. For example I am trying
to get a new PC for my wife and on my last attempt about two weeks ago
for the first time I had (and still have) serious issues to get a
Windows-free PC from Dell that is not about 100 % more expensive than
a comparable PC with Windows. And I never had such problems before! So
regarding to Bug #1 for me currently it seems to get even worse than
better.


> As more and more organisations turn to Linux for these
> reasons, then ordinary folk who work for them will want something better
> on their home computers.

My experience is the other way round: Employees want to work on what
they know from home (because grew up with it). Nowadays in schools
there are even laptop-classes where they do everything on their
laptop. Expect those people running their own company later: If they
are more familiar with Ubuntu they will tell their IT department to
install that everywhere. And that's why we are still about 30 years
away from the year of the Linux desktop - because the CEOs currently
steering companies grow up with Windows. ;-)

Best regards, Martin.