emacs-goodies-el: Some Lisp packages are useless without non-free software

[Debian Bug Importer]

Automatically imported from Debian bug report #338333 http://bugs.debian.org/338333

[Peter S Galbraith (psg)]

Sven Joachim <email address hidden> wrote:

> Package: emacs-goodies-el
> Version: 26.3-1
> Severity: serious
>
> It seems to me that some Emacs Lisp packages in emacs-goodies-el are
> only of any use if non-free software is installed on the system,
> namely: maplev.el needs Maple, matlab.el needs Matlab and tcl.el needs
> the Target Language Compiler (whatever that is, but it is certainly
> not part of Debian). Therefore, these files belong in the "contrib"
> section of Debian (see section 2.2.2 of the Policy Manual) and must
> not go into a package in the main section. Please remove them from
> emacs-goodies-el and make a separate package of them for the contrib
> section.

I disagree with this interpretation. I certainly didn't think of it
that way when I packaged them.

While matlab and maple are certainly non-free software, the elisp files
don't support these software directly. The elisp files are to help
write scripts which can be under any license, including free ones.
I don't even have matlab in my system but can read .m files more easily
with matlab-mode.

If you still disagree, I guess we can ask debian-devel or debian-policy.

Regards,
--
Peter S. Galbraith, Debian Developer <email address hidden>
                                 http://people.debian.org/~psg
GPG key 1024/D2A913A1 - 97CE 866F F579 96EE 6E68 8170 35FF 799E

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Automatically imported from Debian bug report #338333 http://bugs.debian.org/338333

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-ID: <email address hidden>
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:28:02 +0100
From: Sven Joachim <email address hidden>
To: Debian Bug Tracking System <email address hidden>
Subject: emacs-goodies-el: Some Lisp packages are useless without non-free
 software

Package: emacs-goodies-el
Version: 26.3-1
Severity: serious

It seems to me that some Emacs Lisp packages in emacs-goodies-el are
only of any use if non-free software is installed on the system,
namely: maplev.el needs Maple, matlab.el needs Matlab and tcl.el needs
the Target Language Compiler (whatever that is, but it is certainly
not part of Debian). Therefore, these files belong in the "contrib"
section of Debian (see section 2.2.2 of the Policy Manual) and must
not go into a package in the main section. Please remove them from
emacs-goodies-el and make a separate package of them for the contrib
section.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
   APT prefers unstable
   APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'testing'), (3, 'testing'), (2, 'unstable'), (1, 'unstable')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.4.31
Locale: LANG=de_DE, LC_CTYPE=de_DE (charmap=ISO-8859-1)

Versions of packages emacs-goodies-el depends on:
ii bash 3.0-17 The GNU Bourne Again SHell
ii emacs-snapshot [emacsen] 1:20051103-1 The GNU Emacs editor (development
ii emacs21 [emacsen] 21.4a-1 The GNU Emacs editor

Versions of packages emacs-goodies-el recommends:
pn dict <none> (no description available)
ii perl-doc 5.8.7-7 Perl documentation
ii wget 1.10.1-1 retrieves files from the web

-- no debconf information

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-Id: <email address hidden>
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:16:19 -0500
From: Peter S Galbraith <email address hidden>
To: Sven Joachim <email address hidden>, <email address hidden>
Subject: Re: Bug#338333: emacs-goodies-el: Some Lisp packages are useless without non-free software

Sven Joachim <email address hidden> wrote:

> Package: emacs-goodies-el
> Version: 26.3-1
> Severity: serious
>
> It seems to me that some Emacs Lisp packages in emacs-goodies-el are
> only of any use if non-free software is installed on the system,
> namely: maplev.el needs Maple, matlab.el needs Matlab and tcl.el needs
> the Target Language Compiler (whatever that is, but it is certainly
> not part of Debian). Therefore, these files belong in the "contrib"
> section of Debian (see section 2.2.2 of the Policy Manual) and must
> not go into a package in the main section. Please remove them from
> emacs-goodies-el and make a separate package of them for the contrib
> section.

I disagree with this interpretation. I certainly didn't think of it
that way when I packaged them.

While matlab and maple are certainly non-free software, the elisp files
don't support these software directly. The elisp files are to help
write scripts which can be under any license, including free ones.
I don't even have matlab in my system but can read .m files more easily
with matlab-mode.

If you still disagree, I guess we can ask debian-devel or debian-policy.

Regards,
--
Peter S. Galbraith, Debian Developer <email address hidden>
                                 http://people.debian.org/~psg
GPG key 1024/D2A913A1 - 97CE 866F F579 96EE 6E68 8170 35FF 799E

[Sven Joachim (sven-joachim)]

severity 338333 wishlist
thanks

[Sven Joachim (sven-joachim)]

Peter S Galbraith wrote:

> I disagree with this interpretation. I certainly didn't think of it
> that way when I packaged them.
>
> While matlab and maple are certainly non-free software, the elisp files
> don't support these software directly.

There are the autoloaded commands `matlab-shell' and `cmaple' to run
matlab and maple as subprocesses. Does that not mean direct support?
Count yourself lucky if RMS does not notice you promoting maple and
matlab. ;-)

> The elisp files are to help write scripts which can be under any
> license, including free ones.

My objection was that you still need the non-free third party software
to actually _run_ those scripts. :-(
Anyway, it seems that your point of view is generally accepted, as I found
three Emacs add-on packages in main which also help to write scripts
for non-free interpreters, namely inform-mode, lpc-mode and tads2-mode.

> I don't even have matlab in my system but can read .m files more
> easily with matlab-mode.

Okay, than matlab-mode is not so useless after all, I see.
Fortunately, you don't enforce that on other people by changing
auto-mode-alist.

> If you still disagree, I guess we can ask debian-devel or debian-policy.

While I would still prefer a different package for these files, I am
sufficiently convinced that it is no policy violation to leave them in
the main section. So I've downgraded the severity to "wishlist".

Kind Regards,

--
  Sven Joachim

[Peter S Galbraith (psg)]

Sven Joachim <email address hidden> wrote:

> Peter S Galbraith wrote:
>
> > I disagree with this interpretation. I certainly didn't think of it
> > that way when I packaged them.
> >
> > While matlab and maple are certainly non-free software, the elisp files
> > don't support these software directly.
>
> There are the autoloaded commands `matlab-shell' and `cmaple' to run
> matlab and maple as subprocesses. Does that not mean direct support?

If that was the core of it, then yes it would.

> Count yourself lucky if RMS does not notice you promoting maple and
> matlab. ;-)

I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I'm sure he had a c-mode
before he had a free C compiler. I don't particularly agree with his
views on what is free enough for documentation as well (e.g. his
non-free sections).

> > The elisp files are to help write scripts which can be under any
> > license, including free ones.
>
> My objection was that you still need the non-free third party software
> to actually _run_ those scripts. :-(
> Anyway, it seems that your point of view is generally accepted, as I found
> three Emacs add-on packages in main which also help to write scripts
> for non-free interpreters, namely inform-mode, lpc-mode and tads2-mode.
>
> > I don't even have matlab in my system but can read .m files more
> > easily with matlab-mode.
>
> Okay, than matlab-mode is not so useless after all, I see.
> Fortunately, you don't enforce that on other people by changing
> auto-mode-alist.
>
> > If you still disagree, I guess we can ask debian-devel or debian-policy.
>
> While I would still prefer a different package for these files, I am
> sufficiently convinced that it is no policy violation to leave them in
> the main section. So I've downgraded the severity to "wishlist".

Thanks for being reasonable about an alternative point of view on it.

It's a fine line, but I don't think I have crossed it. I'm sure there
are others within Debian who would disagree with me, so this topic may
come up again at some point.

Thanks,
Peter

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-ID: <email address hidden>
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 15:12:40 +0100
From: Sven Joachim <email address hidden>
To: Peter S Galbraith <email address hidden>, <email address hidden>
Subject: Re: Bug#338333: emacs-goodies-el: Some Lisp packages are useless without non-free software

Peter S Galbraith wrote:

> I disagree with this interpretation. I certainly didn't think of it
> that way when I packaged them.
>
> While matlab and maple are certainly non-free software, the elisp files
> don't support these software directly.

There are the autoloaded commands `matlab-shell' and `cmaple' to run
matlab and maple as subprocesses. Does that not mean direct support?
Count yourself lucky if RMS does not notice you promoting maple and
matlab. ;-)

> The elisp files are to help write scripts which can be under any
> license, including free ones.

My objection was that you still need the non-free third party software
to actually _run_ those scripts. :-(
Anyway, it seems that your point of view is generally accepted, as I found
three Emacs add-on packages in main which also help to write scripts
for non-free interpreters, namely inform-mode, lpc-mode and tads2-mode.

> I don't even have matlab in my system but can read .m files more
> easily with matlab-mode.

Okay, than matlab-mode is not so useless after all, I see.
Fortunately, you don't enforce that on other people by changing
auto-mode-alist.

> If you still disagree, I guess we can ask debian-devel or debian-policy.

While I would still prefer a different package for these files, I am
sufficiently convinced that it is no policy violation to leave them in
the main section. So I've downgraded the severity to "wishlist".

Kind Regards,

--
  Sven Joachim

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-ID: <email address hidden>
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 15:12:00 +0100
From: Sven Joachim <email address hidden>
To: <email address hidden>
Subject: severity 338333 wishlist

severity 338333 wishlist
thanks

[Debian Bug Importer (debzilla)]

Message-Id: <email address hidden>
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:45:15 -0500
From: Peter S Galbraith <email address hidden>
To: Sven Joachim <email address hidden>
Cc: <email address hidden>
Subject: Re: Bug#338333: emacs-goodies-el: Some Lisp packages are useless without non-free software

Sven Joachim <email address hidden> wrote:

> Peter S Galbraith wrote:
>
> > I disagree with this interpretation. I certainly didn't think of it
> > that way when I packaged them.
> >
> > While matlab and maple are certainly non-free software, the elisp files
> > don't support these software directly.
>
> There are the autoloaded commands `matlab-shell' and `cmaple' to run
> matlab and maple as subprocesses. Does that not mean direct support?

If that was the core of it, then yes it would.

> Count yourself lucky if RMS does not notice you promoting maple and
> matlab. ;-)

I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I'm sure he had a c-mode
before he had a free C compiler. I don't particularly agree with his
views on what is free enough for documentation as well (e.g. his
non-free sections).

> > The elisp files are to help write scripts which can be under any
> > license, including free ones.
>
> My objection was that you still need the non-free third party software
> to actually _run_ those scripts. :-(
> Anyway, it seems that your point of view is generally accepted, as I found
> three Emacs add-on packages in main which also help to write scripts
> for non-free interpreters, namely inform-mode, lpc-mode and tads2-mode.
>
> > I don't even have matlab in my system but can read .m files more
> > easily with matlab-mode.
>
> Okay, than matlab-mode is not so useless after all, I see.
> Fortunately, you don't enforce that on other people by changing
> auto-mode-alist.
>
> > If you still disagree, I guess we can ask debian-devel or debian-policy.
>
> While I would still prefer a different package for these files, I am
> sufficiently convinced that it is no policy violation to leave them in
> the main section. So I've downgraded the severity to "wishlist".

Thanks for being reasonable about an alternative point of view on it.

It's a fine line, but I don't think I have crossed it. I'm sure there
are others within Debian who would disagree with me, so this topic may
come up again at some point.

Thanks,
Peter

[Carthik Sharma (carthik)]

Marked as wishlist in Debian BTS. Apparent violation of Debian free/non-free policy. Not applicable to Ubuntu. Closing.

[Sven Joachim (svenjoac)]

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