Bug #1335409 “[Acer Aspire V3-571G] Mousepad stopped working” : Bugs : linux package : Ubuntu

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Teo (teo1978) wrote on 2014-06-28:

#1

AlsaInfo.txt Edit (30.0 KiB, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
BootDmesg.txt Edit (77.9 KiB, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
CRDA.txt Edit (257 bytes, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
CurrentDmesg.txt Edit (29.9 KiB, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
Dependencies.txt Edit (2.8 KiB, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
IwConfig.txt Edit (512 bytes, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
Lspci.txt Edit (12.0 KiB, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
Lsusb.txt Edit (514 bytes, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
ProcCpuinfo.txt Edit (7.5 KiB, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
ProcEnviron.txt Edit (316 bytes, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
ProcInterrupts.txt Edit (3.8 KiB, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
ProcModules.txt Edit (4.9 KiB, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
PulseList.txt Edit (21.3 KiB, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
RfKill.txt Edit (244 bytes, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
UdevDb.txt Edit (156.7 KiB, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
UdevLog.txt Edit (356.6 KiB, text/plain; charset="utf-8")
WifiSyslog.txt Edit (493 bytes, text/plain; charset="utf-8")

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Brad Figg (brad-figg) wrote on 2014-06-28: Status changed to Confirmed

#2

This change was made by a bot.

Changed in linux (Ubuntu):
status:	New → Confirmed

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penalvch (penalvch) wrote on 2014-06-30: Re: mousepad stopped working

#3

Teo, as per http://us.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/drivers an update to your BIOS is available (2.21). If you update to this following https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BiosUpdate does it change anything? If it doesn't, could you please both specify what happened, and provide the output of the following terminal command:
sudo dmidecode -s bios-version && sudo dmidecode -s bios-release-date

Please note your current BIOS is already in the Bug Description, so posting this on the old BIOS would not be helpful. As well, you don't have to create a new bug report. As well, you don't have to create a new bug report.

For more on BIOS updates and linux, please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs#Bug_reporting_etiquette .

Thank you for your understanding.

tags:	added: bios-outdated-2.21
Changed in linux (Ubuntu):
importance:	Undecided → Low
status:	Confirmed → Incomplete
summary:	- mousepad stopped working + [Acer Aspire V3-571G] Mousepad stopped working

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Launchpad Janitor (janitor) wrote on 2014-08-30:

#4

[Expired for linux (Ubuntu) because there has been no activity for 60 days.]

Changed in linux (Ubuntu):
status:	Incomplete → Expired

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teo1978 (teo8976) wrote on 2014-08-30:

#5

This policy of having bugs expire just because they are not reported on the latest bios is ridiculous and must be changed.
Machines are out there with non updated BIOSes, and Linux must support them. Other OSes support them.
The probability that a given bug will disappear by updating the BIOS are close to zero, and even if that is the case, that doesn't mean that the bug is CAUSED by a bug in the BIOS. The default assumption should be that the bug is in the sotware, unless there a proof of the contrary, because that's what happens in 99.99% of cases.

Plus, a decent (and safe) way of updating the BIOS from within Ubuntu without relying on booting from other OSes is not available. Until such a thing is provided, you can't expect Ubuntu users to update their BIOS.

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penalvch (penalvch) wrote on 2014-08-30:

#6

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teo1978, thank you for your comments. Regarding them:
>"this policy of having bugs expire just because they are not reported on the latest bios is ridiculous and must be changed."

Bugs don't expire because they are not initially reported on the latest BIOS. They expire because they remain in the Incomplete Status for too long. For more on this, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status .

>"Machines are out there with non updated BIOSes..."

The fact that many folks have computers with an outdated BIOS running Ubuntu successfully is great. However, it doesn't mean if they report a linux (Ubuntu) problem they wouldn't need to update their BIOS.

>"...and Linux must support them."

Linux, is not a company, nor a support organization, it is the kernel. Despite this, If linux upstream thinks you have a bug due to an outdated BIOS, instead of someone actually responding to your complaining about updating, comments like this are typically promptly ignored (besides embarrassing yourself in the process).

>"Other OSes support them."

All the OS companies and supporting organizations are all going to want to see the BIOS updated. Your hardware vendor would advise you to update your BIOS when you have a wonky hardware timing issue that isn't due to a hardware failure. That's one of many reasons why vendors provide BIOS updates (security, enhancements, etc.).

With this in mind, have you confirmed that this problem is not reproducible in Windows?

>"The probability that a given bug will disappear by updating the BIOS are close to zero,"

Unfortunately, this would be speculation.

>"and even if that is the case, that doesn't mean that the bug is CAUSED by a bug in the BIOS."

That is the exact point you are missing. BIOS bugs can cause issues all over the map, including yours.

>The default assumption should be that the bug is in the sotware, unless there a proof of the contrary"

As already advised to you in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs#Bug_reporting_etiquette If we are talking about user-space, then yes, the strategy is assume it's a bug in the software, versus the kernel. With linux kernel bugs, because the kernel is directly talking to the hardware, and an improperly functioning, and poorly written BIOS has a direct, negative effect on how the linux kernel behaves (same with Windows, Mac, etc.), and in turn the upper user-space layer, one would need to ensure it's updated. As well, an outdated BIOS can cause collateral damage problems.

>"Plus, a decent (and safe) way of updating the BIOS from within Ubuntu without relying on booting from other OSes is not available."

While I haven't surveyed all the vendors in a while, I'm not presently aware of vendors explicitly providing in-Ubuntu/(other linux vendor) methods of updating the BIOS. However, that is a fantastic suggestion. Have you reached out to Acer regarding this?

>"Until such a thing is provided, you can't expect Ubuntu users to update their BIOS."

As already advised to you in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BiosUpdate some vendors provide an in-Windows update method, some provide a self contained OS to update from, and some advise to use FreeDOS. As well, countles...

teo1978, thank you for your comments. Regarding them:
>"this policy of having bugs expire just because they are not reported on the latest bios is ridiculous and must be changed."

Bugs don't expire because they are not initially reported on the latest BIOS. They expire because they remain in the Incomplete Status for too long. For more on this, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status .

>"Machines are out there with non updated BIOSes..."

The fact that many folks have computers with an outdated BIOS running Ubuntu successfully is great. However, it doesn't mean if they report a linux (Ubuntu) problem they wouldn't need to update their BIOS.

>"...and Linux must support them."

Linux, is not a company, nor a support organization, it is the kernel. Despite this, If linux upstream thinks you have a bug due to an outdated BIOS, instead of someone actually responding to your complaining about updating, comments like this are typically promptly ignored (besides embarrassing yourself in the process).

>"Other OSes support them."

All the OS companies and supporting organizations are all going to want to see the BIOS updated. Your hardware vendor would advise you to update your BIOS when you have a wonky hardware timing issue that isn't due to a hardware failure. That's one of many reasons why vendors provide BIOS updates (security, enhancements, etc.).

With this in mind, have you confirmed that this problem is not reproducible in Windows?

>"The probability that a given bug will disappear by updating the BIOS are close to zero,"

Unfortunately, this would be speculation.

>"and even if that is the case, that doesn't mean that the bug is CAUSED by a bug in the BIOS."

That is the exact point you are missing. BIOS bugs can cause issues all over the map, including yours.

>The default assumption should be that the bug is in the sotware, unless there a proof of the contrary"

As already advised to you in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs#Bug_reporting_etiquette If we are talking about user-space, then yes, the strategy is assume it's a bug in the software, versus the kernel. With linux kernel bugs, because the kernel is directly talking to the hardware, and an improperly functioning, and poorly written BIOS has a direct, negative effect on how the linux kernel behaves (same with Windows, Mac, etc.), and in turn the upper user-space layer, one would need to ensure it's updated. As well, an outdated BIOS can cause collateral damage problems.

>"Plus, a decent (and safe) way of updating the BIOS from within Ubuntu without relying on booting from other OSes is not available."

While I haven't surveyed all the vendors in a while, I'm not presently aware of vendors explicitly providing in-Ubuntu/(other linux vendor) methods of updating the BIOS. However, that is a fantastic suggestion. Have you reached out to Acer regarding this?

>"Until such a thing is provided, you can't expect Ubuntu users to update their BIOS."

As already advised to you in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BiosUpdate some vendors provide an in-Windows update method, some provide a self contained OS to update from, and some advise to use FreeDOS. As well, countless people, with all the vendors noted in the article, and those vendors that are not, utilized the methods already advised to you to successfully update their BIOS.

Hence, it is expected you update your BIOS. The more time you spend complaining about updating, instead of either updating or asking for help on doing so, is just causing a longer and longer delay of your problem being resolved.

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teo1978 (teo8976) wrote on 2014-08-30:

#7

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> Bugs don't expire because they are not initially reported on the latest BIOS. They expire because they remain in the Incomplete Status for too long.

Don't play stupid, please. I know they expire because they remain in the incomplete status. The wrong policy I'm talking about is that they are systematically put in the "incomplete" status every time they are reported with an outdated bios. And that's what eventually causes them to expire, because me updating the bios is just not going to happen (until it can be done easily and safely in Ubuntu).

> If linux upstream thinks you have a bug due to an outdated BIOS...

The problem here is that bugs aren't put in the incomplete status because somebody upstream actually "thinks" the bug is due to an outdate BIOS, nor even because there is the slightest reason to suspect that, but simply because the bios is not updated. That is, it is ASSUMED that every bug that is reported under an outdated bios is due to the outdated bios. That's a ridiculous assumption. If one had to assume something (until any evidence is found), it would be safer to assume the exact opposite, as that has much more chances to be the case (i.e. the bug be in the OS).

If the goal is to fix the highest number of bugs, to have Ubuntu work better, to provide a better UX, and to support the widest set of hardware, this strategy is obiously wrong.

The requirement to update the BIOS should be made only when there is a strong reason to suspect that the outdated bios is related.

And note that EVEN in the extremely unlikely case that the bug exists only on the outdated bios, that does not necessarily mean that the bug is DUE to a bug in the bios. The bug may be just triggered by some "legitimate" (i.e. non-buggy) characteristic in the bios that has been removed in the latest version, hence not triggering the bug in the OS any more, which doesn't make it less of a bug.

Also note that I reported this bug against Linux just because I have no idea what package it may belong to. This happens pretty often to me, and I guess to many other users, because ¿how on earth is an end user supposed to figure out what package a bug belongs to? (no need to reply with a link to the guide, I already read that, it doesn't help in most cases)

So, because of this policy of marking as incomplete every linux bug that happens to be reported on outdated bios, bugs like this don't even reach the stage where somebody more knowleadgeable than the reporter targets it to the correct package.

> While I haven't surveyed all the vendors in a while, I'm not presently aware of vendors explicitly providing in-Ubuntu/(other linux vendor) methods of updating the BIOS.

That's exactly why you can't depend on bios updates to discard bug reports. Whether or not that depends solely on vendors, that makes updating BIOS for Ubuntu users risky and complicated. I won't take all the time to create another OS's boot disk and do all that stuff, and especially the risk to brick my computer, just to check whether or not a bug I've found in Ubuntu disappears, when there's a 0.0000001% chance that that may happen.
So, while the reality remains that updating the BIOS for an Ubuntu ...

> Bugs don't expire because they are not initially reported on the latest BIOS. They expire because they remain in the Incomplete Status for too long.

Don't play stupid, please. I know they expire because they remain in the incomplete status. The wrong policy I'm talking about is that  they are systematically put in the "incomplete" status every time they are reported with an outdated bios. And that's what eventually causes them to expire, because me updating the bios is just not going to happen (until it can be done easily and safely in Ubuntu).